D&D 5E How can players counter Mass Suggestion?

[Baldurs_Underdark]

I have a (homebrew) monster who can cast Mass Suggestion, but I hesitate to use it against my players, because I see very few ways that the players can counter it. I am considering to nerf the monster and to remove the Mass Suggestion. From a roleplay perspective, the Mass Suggestion makes sense - this is an influential NPC - but I think it is over-powered. I am looking for some feedback!

What can a player do against Mass Suggestion after their failed the saving throw? Are they just ****ed for the next 24 hrs? There seems no way to get rid of it, other than a different spell from a (friendly) spell caster (e.g. dispel magic, or another suggestion spell). It is also not a concentration spell, so you can't just hit/kill the creature who cast it to get rid of it.

Btw, Mass Suggestion is really a Kryptonite to my players: None of them have racial/class benefits against it, and they all have crap Wis saves. I want to force my players to flee the battle. I expect at least 3 of the 6 to fail their saves, which means the battle is lost, and the players will either be killed or captured (note: I don't need to capture them for my storyline, and I would much rather see my players victorious in this encounter, which is why I consider nerfing the NPC).

 

[Bitbrain]

Do any of your players have Counterspell? Calm Emotions? Greater Restoration?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Cheese in ears.

 

[Coroc]

Charm and hold spells in former Editions were at least as powerful. In AD&D2nd even the lowly 1st Level sleep was such a killer that along with 1st Level charm Person and 2nd Level hold Person i either houseruled them to be not available or immediately dispelled when soemone only intended to attack an PC or mob under this spell. (So no autohit)

Problem is they were instakillers, an effect which you could not produce that reliable with soem 7th or 8th Level spells.

For your specific Problem: I see no Problem with mass Suggesting the PCs to leave/ flee. Make sure the Scenario is composed in a way that Players making their saves see it will go against the Odds even with full Group, so they follow their beguiled comrades.

Other than that be very strict that charms normally do not work against fundamental interests like self preservation / attacking a friend or at least grant a saving throw in These Events.

 

[iserith]

Telegraph and foreshadow this threat well in advance. It should not in my view be a surprise to the players when the spell is cast on them. That gives them the opportunity to think about how they want to possibly counter or avoid it when the time comes. The easiest way to try to deal with it is spending Inspiration on their saving throws to have a better chance of success, but they may come up with some clever options.

It's the players' role to come up with a solution, not yours. All you need do is warn them it's coming. And if they do nothing and are killed and/or captured, they will know they had a hand in that outcome. But they may surprise you.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

Do any of your players have Counterspell? Calm Emotions? Greater Restoration?

Only counterspell. And only 1 player. So this is their only chance. But it's a DC16 (Mass Suggestion is a 6th level spell), so no guarantees it works.

Cheese in ears.

That requires that the players anticipate Charm spells. I don't think they will see this one coming.

For your specific Problem: I see no Problem with mass Suggesting the PCs to leave/ flee. Make sure the Scenario is composed in a way that Players making their saves see it will go against the Odds even with full Group, so they follow their beguiled comrades.

Yeah, I am on the same page as you. Either remove the Mass Suggestion, or alter the scenario. I think I may go for the first option though, as running away presents a whole new set of problems for the storyline, which I did not include in the post (because I don't want to discuss that).

Telegraph and foreshadow this threat well in advance. It should not in my view be a surprise to the players when the spell is cast on them. That gives them the opportunity to think about how they want to possibly counter or avoid it when the time comes. The easiest way to try to deal with it is spending Inspiration on their saving throws to have a better chance of success, but they may come up with some clever options.

It's the players' role to come up with a solution, not yours. All you need do is warn them it's coming. And if they do nothing and are killed and/or captured, they will know they had a hand in that outcome. But they may surprise you.

As I said above: In the current storyline, the players won't see it coming. So I have to change the story, or remove the spell. I think the spell has to go, and the monster will be nerfed a bit. It's a homebrew monster anyway, so nobody will notice something was changed.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You say they all have poor wisdom saves? I think the party needs to be punished for that. Can't you give the Mass Suggestion to mischievous sprites who will just use it to steel all their stuff (and clothes)?

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

You say they all have poor wisdom saves? I think the party needs to be punished for that. Can't you give the Mass Suggestion to mischievous sprites who will just use it to steel all their stuff (and clothes)?

Seconded. If they have crappy Wisdom then so be it. No need to change your creature design just to accommodate their stat allocation. Did they roll for stats or use point buy?

 

[jaelis]

Use the spell to make them do something interesting.

 

[DEFCON 1]

So wait a second...

You have an influential and powerful NPC that you gave Mass Suggestion to them for, presumably because their power and influence would allow them to protect themselves by casting MS when uppity adventurers got in their face. Okay, that makes sense. This powerful NPC probably has bodyguards and traps in his HQ and whatnot too I'd imagine.

You then say you want to force your players to flee the battle that they will inevitably have with this influential NPC. So you presumably want the NPC to cast Mass Suggestion on the party, suggest that they all leave his HQ now before they get hurt. Then based upon bad WIS saving throws you figure probably at least half will fail and the ones that don't will have to decide whether to follow the failed PCs out the door, or try and take on the boss by themselves (and get either killed or captured.) Okay, that's understandable.

But then you say you want your players to be victorious in their fight against the NPC. Which runs exactly counter to your earlier point about wanting the PCs to flee the battle? That doesn't make sense. Let's ignore the fact for the moment that you are trying to dictate the results of your player's actions (which usually never is a good idea as you can barely ever get the result you are looking for)... but what exactly are you hoping to see here? Do you want them to flee or do you hope that they win?

But then this brings up an important point-- what is this "story" you feel as though you need to see happen? Why is your "story" so important you want to dictate the results? Why can't your "story" play out in both directions-- where the party is suggested to leave the NPC (and they "lose"), or they kick the NPC's rear end and they "win"? Why don't you have a direction the story can take for either result? Because it seems to me, this would allow you to not have to do anything. You don't have to nerf your NPC, the fight can just happen, and the narrative can continue on regardless of the results. No dictating necessary.

So I wouldn't worry about figuring out ways to get around Mass Suggestion-- after all as you say, the NPC just doesn't have to use it if its really that important. But rather, the question really is why not getting Mass Suggested is actually important in the first place? Especially when dealing with an NPC who apparently is important enough that you felt the need to give them Mass Suggestion as an ability?