How Would you Fix Broken Power: Beguiling Strands

[Garthanos]

Somehow I feel if this was a barbarians howl of fearsome might people would freak.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Later 4e controller powers do tend to be better in general, because the early ones are pretty crap.

IDK, my 4.0, PH+ArcanePower Eladrin Wizard McFighter > WotST rocked pretty hard while the campaign lasted (broke up low-Paragon), he had to work at making best use of 'all-creatures' AEs and sustain powers and the like (because, not only was I designing him to evoke an old-school elf-fighter/magic-user, I was pedantically avoiding the spells picked by another player's wizard in another campaign - and she'd picked most of the better spells!).
Post-E wizards just seem, IDK, 'too easy.'

Even though the challenge of playing an early-4e wizard was quite different from playing a 1st level 1e fighter/magic-user, there was something fun & nostalgic about it.

That's the issue right there.
Thunderwave blows.

Ironically, one of the spells I didn't get to take because it was new, and Ms. Draco had chosen it... it really seemed a very good spell, enemies finally melee your 'clothie' and, BOOM, no AoO, they get pushed away and you're free to move to a safer spot. FORT is the low defense for some monsters - you don't pull it out for brutes, obvious. Not a lot resists Thunder. It seemed like a great at-will until inflation kicked in.

Somehow I feel if this was a barbarians howl of fearsome might people would freak.

Maybe not in this thread of mostly-4e-friendly-fans.

But 4e controller powers tended to be beyond the pale, because of needing to provide the role's support, and the wizard's lost sight of that pale somewhere in their rear-view mirrors c2010...

 

[The Human Target]

That is how the player uses it... he is indeed a human with three.

Thing I see is situationally it can have value until along comes Beguiling strands, which is like having the super expertise feats... which blow out a bunch of others that had flavor or situational value. Instead of adding options they effectively take them away (or with a player less tapped in to optimizing, build traps of them)

I mean, I agree with you in spirit.

But there's plenty of stuff that does that in 4e, before you include Essentials stuff.

All powers were not created equal.

 

[Garthanos]

You could get a Dragonling and have him become the vehicle for Arcane Blast (yes likely not end up used on Thunderwave except during the first very few levels). Might be able to get them to go exactlly the direction desired. (once per encounter)

 

[Garthanos]

I just found this power to be an 'easy mode' that Wizard gradually got put in over time, capped with Essentials and its rewrites of encounter powers, etc.

My players probably wouldnt mind easy mode things but I cannot help but feel a lot of interesting flavor gets washed away

Beyond encounter powers what about them cantrips.

 

[Garthanos]

Taking the area down to Blast 3 would help.

Giving Thunderwave a range of 5 might help it too... ie pick a square up to 5 squares from you waves of thunderous power radiate forth pushing enemies back.

 

[The Human Target]

IDK, my 4.0, PH+ArcanePower Eladrin Wizard McFighter > WotST rocked pretty hard while the campaign lasted (broke up low-Paragon), he had to work at making best use of 'all-creatures' AEs and sustain powers and the like (because, not only was I designing him to evoke an old-school elf-fighter/magic-user, I was pedantically avoiding the spells picked by another player's wizard in another campaign - and she'd picked most of the better spells!).
Post-E wizards just seem, IDK, 'too easy.'

Even though the challenge of playing an early-4e wizard was quite different from playing a 1st level 1e fighter/magic-user, there was something fun & nostalgic about it.


Ironically, one of the spells I didn't get to take because it was new, and Ms. Draco had chosen it... it really seemed a very good spell, enemies finally melee your 'clothie' and, BOOM, no AoO, they get pushed away and you're free to move to a safer spot. FORT is the low defense for some monsters - you don't pull it out for brutes, obvious. Not a lot resists Thunder. It seemed like a great at-will until inflation kicked in.

Maybe not in this thread of mostly-4e-friendly-fans.

But 4e controller powers tended to be beyond the pale, because of needing to provide the role's support, and the wizard's lost sight of that pale somewhere in their review mirrors c2010...

Hey my PHB only eladrin wizard was pretty good too, but I still think a lot of the PHB wizard stuff is woefully underpowered and not very controllery.

The problem with thunderwave is that if you're in a position to use it (ie not hit allies and hit multiple enemies closing in on you) you're already probably screwed and that piddly damage push isn't going to do squat.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Hey my PHB only eladrin wizard was pretty good too, but I still think a lot of the PHB wizard stuff is woefully underpowered and not very controllery.

I know there was a lot of complaining about the wizard getting 'nerfed' in 4e, initially, and there never was a solid definition of what being a controller meant.

The way I saw the wizard as controller in early 4e included using targets-creatures AEs as a form of interdiction. Once you've established that you can blow up a bunch of enemies if they're close together, and that you have to be cautious to avoid hitting your allies, the enemy is left with the strategy of spreading out a lot, and unable to support eachother, or with the tactic of engaging closely with your allies... ...which a lot of defenders and strikers (especially PH1 fighter + rogue teams) just love enemies to do.

Targets-enemies AEs are actually less nuanced controller support. They do let you blast as many enemies as you can, every round, regardless of your allies' tactics or positioning, which is fine for minion-sweeping and multi-target DPR.

And half damage on a miss (the most prevalent change in the Essentials-adjacent update)? Nothing to do with control I can see.

The problem with thunderwave is that if you're in a position to use it (ie not hit allies and hit multiple enemies closing in on you) you're already probably screwed and that piddly damage push isn't going to do squat.

If you do find yourself melee'd with no ally right nearby to help, pushing the enemy away, so you can then take a full move to a safer position isn't bad, at all. And it does work for the same kinds of tricks as BS does - set up a zone, push enemies back into it &c - it just isn't quite as prone to abuse, since it's a smaller area/push and you do have to look out for allies, so those tricks become more about interdiction, making certain positions bad places to be that enemies will avoid, than about inescapably doing nasty damage with some vicious zone.

 

[Garthanos]

But 4e controller powers tended to be beyond the pale, because of needing to provide the role's support, and the wizard's lost sight of that pale somewhere in their review mirrors c2010...

I assumed you meant rear - view mirrors. I think if the class had been designed with enchanter et all style boosts in the very first place it could have been ok.

But I do think they were explicitly enhancing the Wizard there doesnt seem a reasonable way to interpret things otherwise.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's the issue right there.

Thunderwave blows.

Close blast three, effects allies, Vs Fort, thunder damage, and a rider dependent on Wisdom.

It's at best a pick for a human wizard with an extra at will to burn.

Not entirely true, its a pretty good power for use by a front-line staff build. Wade in and let loose! The real problem is they failed to provide much else for such a build to DO with itself. There needed to be a whole set of close powers that let you do things like an ongoing damage aura (ala RoS), as well as powers that would slow, prevent shifting, slide, weaken, etc. nearby enemies.

In essence the Sorcerer IS that build, but created as a primary striker. Certainly with PHB1 you couldn't really build an excellent staff build. Even so, T-Wave is still decent as a vs Fort backup power too.