Why doesn't the help action have more limits and down sides?

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
The games DCs outside of combat aren't remotely balanced. That's why there's so much advice around which is basically "don't ask for rolls unless you can't avoid it", along with "try to convince your DM that you just succeed without having to roll".

I have never had a GM play it that way or run it that way. I keep the same DCs and its usually easier if people are helping you do something but isn't that the nature of "helping" because if its not then its not really helping to my mind. With that in mind, its also completely possible that some skill tests could have a DC that is too high for one person to do and you would need a group to do it. I honestly think the biggest problem with DCs is that people keep trying to balance them. I think its better when you don't and remove expectations of pass or fail.

When you think something is impossible (DC30) to do and then a player does it (rolls a 20 +4 skill, +3 lvl 5 proficiency bonus, +3 expertise) then... I am all for seeing where it goes even if they had advantage due to "help". At a DC30, its not balanced, its unlikely for even a high level groups to succeed considering most people only get +6 proficiency at level 20 for a max test of 26, So it might be that they only have a chance to complete the task as a group by finding someway reasonable to lower the DC.

Just my opinion. Do it how it makes you happy.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
So trying to decipher what appears to me to be somewhat vague comments, I think your calling to independent test by two different players not a group test but hold them accountable as a group.....? In my mind the when you let multiple people role for the same test in the same location and create "setbacks" that could make group participation accountable and impact party members who are present... it is a group test, however it seems like your trying to counting second attempts by another party member as a completely separate test while applying group consequences.

Your example restated with my translation: (Maybe wrong but I am honestly trying to read you in text and this is what I got)

Player 1 does investigation check, succeeds but announces a roll like a 15, Player 2 thinks a higher success might have revealed something more so wants to try again with a second investigation check, rolls a 18 and finds nothing new but does not cause problems.

Player 1 does investigation check, fails and finds nothing with a role of 5, Player 2 thinks he can succeed where player one failed rolls a 15 and succeeds, but you want to add a penalty because you don't like check spam test because Player 2 doesn't know why player 1 found nothing unless player 2 is metagaming and knows the role is low. My solution to dealing with that is that I would make it a group check that they can both do if they agree to join into the search when it is announced, if not, then they already stated that they had not interest in searching and any attempt to search after nothing is found would be meta gaming and not allowed. Alternately, you said, " Another player declares he's also searching." to me this reads as a player joining into a group test which is different from a help action as they use their own modifiers instead of giving the player advantage. Where the down side is that if a third person helps and two of them fail the entire test is a failure no matter how good the successful test was.... But you said your not doing that. Which means your letting multiple people check separately on the same test in the same room as individuals even though that amounts to a group searching the room and is the reason for group tests as I understand it. If that is the case its your lack of requiring a group check as a restraint to endless individual tests that is creating the problem, and my confusion on your prior posts. The one case where having a group test is not as good an option is when you have a group of two and their is no chance of less than a 50% success, its only a failure if both fail. In that case you can consider it the aid could be counter productive or on positive. If it could be counter productive, give the primary the help action, have the other role the advantage dice with the primary players stats and narrate the result. If it can only help, like multiple people pushing a bolder, then allow two man group test where its just more likely (but not guaranteed) that they succeed duo to having more weight behind it. Your searching example, it reasonable that more eyes and ideas would only get them too look in more places with more perspectives and a better chance of finding something but if you disagree and you think the second person could be in the way "destroying evidence" then make it a help action.

Player 1 and Player 2 fail, bad things happen failure is its own punishment but if your adding "setbacks" to that just because of the redundant checks your punishing team work on top of that.

My overall point is that I would make them work together if they are together doing the same thing. If I got your intent right this time its because I would consider individuals in a group doing checks as individuals in the same location as group activities and make them roll accordingly because that is what I understand a group test to be for, unless their is some competition between them and they have no intention of sharing and working together with what they find. At that point I would treat them as separately but I would run one and then the other with an initiative role and the success of first might allow the hinderance of the other if they so chose, however that's going to be very rare.

...Any closer?

Now it's "disinclined" you don't seem to follow. Not only are you continuing to prosecute something I idly presented and haven't pursued, it appears our playstyles are different enough that discussion would be fruitless even if I was interested in disentangling your assumptions. Happy gaming!
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Now it's "disinclined" you don't seem to follow. Not only are you continuing to prosecute something I idly presented and haven't pursued, it appears our playstyles are different enough that discussion would be fruitless even if I was interested in disentangling your assumptions. Happy gaming!

Well.... Ok then. At the least you can't say I didn't try to understand your point. Though, I am still curious what your play style is that doesn't follow my logic. Its good to know these things because a broader perspective can often clear a perceived issue just by looking at it from a different angle sometimes directly by allowing you to except it or indirectly by letting you see the issue and approach it from a different angle you didn't see before. However, I am willing to except any conclusion that ends on a somewhat civil note and at least made me think about a mechanic more that I previously had. It makes me look at my on actions and why so I can improve my games as GM and player.

With sincerity happy gaming to you too.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
The games DCs outside of combat aren't remotely balanced. That's why there's so much advice around which is basically "don't ask for rolls unless you can't avoid it", along with "try to convince your DM that you just succeed without having to roll".
What I mean is, what balance they do have is completely thrown under the bus if the DM allows various bonuses from spells, abilities, inspiration etc.

The game is essentially set up so no PC will ever fail such a role, ever. (Or at least, what may look like a healthy 30% failure risk, say, is in reality more like a 3% or even 0.3% risk)
 

CapnZapp

Legend
When you think something is impossible (DC30)
This is not a problem.

The problem is that published modules never call for DC 30 checks, and only very rarely indeed DC 25.

The problem is that published modules call for DC 10 checks. Everything about skills in official adventures is ridiculously easy, that's the problem.

Once you set the DCs yourself, as you do, there is no problem.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
This is not a problem.

The problem is that published modules never call for DC 30 checks, and only very rarely indeed DC 25.

The problem is that published modules call for DC 10 checks. Everything about skills in official adventures is ridiculously easy, that's the problem.

Once you set the DCs yourself, as you do, there is no problem.
DC 10 for non-proficient checks is at least a 20% failure chance at about level. It's usually around a 40% failure chance. Yes, at a certain point, for proficient (and especially expert) PCs, DC10 becomes trivial, but the module writers can't assume the task will only be attempted by those PCs.

DC 20, within the level range the modules are written for, is, for expert PCs, still a 30% failure chance before advantage or magic. The best fails more than a quarter of the time without help on merely hard checks.

The bounds are just fine. If, in your game, only the best at the task tries and only with help and magic, then, yes, it's rare to fail. But consider that this isn't the fault of the system and any changes to increase difficulty will seriously impact all games whether the merely proficient, much less the non-proficient, attempt tasks.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
DC 10 for non-proficient checks is at least a 20% failure chance at about level. It's usually around a 40% failure chance. Yes, at a certain point, for proficient (and especially expert) PCs, DC10 becomes trivial, but the module writers can't assume the task will only be attempted by those PCs.

DC 20, within the level range the modules are written for, is, for expert PCs, still a 30% failure chance before advantage or magic. The best fails more than a quarter of the time without help on merely hard checks.

The bounds are just fine.

Nonsense.

The party sends it best man for the job.

DC 10 Perception checks for the Rogue is a joke. Remember, we're not talking level 1 here. These modules can feature DC 10 even at tenth level!!

Same with DC 10 checks for the face, or DC 10 bend bars checks for the Barbarian.

I could never understand why they didn't just say "you automatically do it".

Not to mention anything where a passive check is allowed. Even Commoners pass passive DC 10 checks. All of them in fact. Each and every time.

(In contrast, for our level 11 Rogue even DC 20 is "auto success" where proficient. That should tell you the difference I'm having to handle)

But since you insist on defending these ludicrous numbers, maybe you can explain to me what the devs were thinking?


Ps. DC 20 checks are fine, nothing wrong with them. Except there's not nearly enough of them.

Something certainly is strange when I must add +2 to +5 to official DCs just to make checks not pointless.

I'm not asking they should be hard, but I would like them to offer at least some chance of failure...

Even changing to DC 12 would have a huge impact, and do wonders in making skill checks relevant again. DC 10 simply makes no sense...


PPS. and let's not forget this is AFTER we put a complete stop to the Help advantage nonsense...
 
Last edited:

DC 10 for non-proficient checks is at least a 20% failure chance at about level. It's usually around a 40% failure chance. Yes, at a certain point, for proficient (and especially expert) PCs, DC10 becomes trivial, but the module writers can't assume the task will only be attempted by those PCs.
Outside of the occasional Athletics check for the Wizard or the Rogue, is this actually happening in any games you play? This sound very theoretical and not actually practical.

If a group is getting killed because they made such terrible characters that nobody in the party can accomplish basic dungeoning or dragoning, then maybe the group should just die. These characters clearly weren't smart enough to recognize that they should have never left the farm.

In every real world game of 5E D&D I've ever played, the one where Standard Array all but guarantees a character will end up with at least a +3 in their primary stat and thus a +5 on proficient skill checks, no group is routinely failing these checks, and it's bad game design to write adventures aiming at a party of incompetents. Every group I have been in had the Fighter or the Barbarian doing the lifting, the Bard or Sorcerer doing the talking, and the Wizards making the Nature checks. ;)
 


ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
You... are familiar with hit points, right?

Yep, I think something is wrong with my Player Character in real life, I am supposed to wake up feeling all better but instead wake up feeling like I was beat half to death in my sleep and it takes a potion of coffee to revitalize me out of 3 level of exhaustion so I can start my adventuring day without all the negative modifiers and for some reason their is about a 2-3 hour delay before that potion really kicks in.
 

Remove ads

Top