A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

[The Crimson Binome]

An eight-hour short rest?

I thought eight hours was a long rest...

I was referring to the optional rules, by which the duration of rests could be altered.

In a case of the designers going out of their way to miss the point, they explicitly acknowledged that different DMs like to describe HP loss in different ways, and then produced a number of optional rules for slowing down the natural recovery rate... where the absolute slowest possible combination of options will still allow a character to recover from zero to full overnight. (The only catch is that you need to spend two weeks resting before you can go from zero to full overnight twice.)

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=6698278]Emerikol[/MENTION] - I agree with you that HD and Inspiration are metagame mechanics. (I think hp are also, but maybe you don't agree with that.)

But I don't think I agree about action surge and second wind. These are correlates of the character, in the ficiton, trying harder and pushing him-/herself to his/her limits.

 

[Emerikol]

You should definitely look at Pathfinder if you're not already playing it.

Pathfinder 2 has a lot of promise, but I'm not sure exactly what is triggering you from your examples.

For instance you might not like legendary skill feats.

Yeah, I was pretty intrigued by the possibilities of Pathfinder 2. And you are right, the legendary skill feats might be too far for me but then those may be easier to houserule away.

 

[Emerikol]

I think about half your answers are the same as mine.

This is the half we agree upon. If a given game really doesn't do it for you, on more than just on a few fiddly points here and there, find a different core ruleset that is closer to what you want, and houserule that. Don't bother rewriting half the game.

Well you may be right. I was opening it up to various options from D&D, Pathfinder, or Retro. There are things I do like about modern game design.

But the other half of my answer is... well, make sure that you're focused on the right thing at the table. You may be fundamentally different from me, but I find the *people* make it worth sitting down and playing. My interactions with people are far more rich, interesting, and entertaining than my interaction with a ruleset. It then follows that the ruleset really isn't something I should worry about so much. I need to know how to make them do what they are good at doing, but the bits I don't like will fade into the background when I am in a game with good people. The system has to be nigh-FATAL levels of bad for it to ruin my day.

I get that. That kind of goes back to it maybe doesn't bother you really that much. I can get a good group pretty easily. Sadly, GM's are still in scarcer than players. And I think I offer a particular style of play that is popular with my crew. I came here mainly to throw out ideas and get feedback and experiences from other players. Hopefully without any animus. I recognize that D&D 5e is very popular and they'd be fools to change to suit me. I'm actually happy that the game is doing well. That doesn't change my own desire to find something that fits me well.

You must be thinking of someone else. I have never posted about Pf2e.

Sorry it was a general comment that carried over to your specific post.

 

[Emerikol]

Have you looked at GURPS??? Maybe that'll be more up your alley.

I own a lot of GURPS stuff but for high fantasy it's not high fantasy enough. I might use the system for sci-fi or something like that. I admit to being a game junky so I buy a ton more games than I play. I didn't buy 5e out of protest but assuredly that won't be heard as well as they are doing. .

 

[Emerikol]

[MENTION=6698278]Emerikol[/MENTION] - I agree with you that HD and Inspiration are metagame mechanics. (I think hp are also, but maybe you don't agree with that.)

But I don't think I agree about action surge and second wind. These are correlates of the character, in the ficiton, trying harder and pushing him-/herself to his/her limits.

Thats okay. Everyone sees things differently. They bother me. Of course I'm in a particular camp on healing as well. Just call me the old grognard.

I do think the 5e design team didn't ever get people with my viewpoint. Saelorn has made an observation to that effect. To me it would have been so easy to have an option for the core 4 classes that lacked these objectionable things and I think most people like me would have just ignored the rest of the classes with it. I only really need Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue. Paladin would be my fifth but I could give it up.

Apparently though, enough people don't have issue with their approach so I'm not blaming them for accurately finding a market segment. I think a lot of people like me have just went to the retroclones but I admit SOME of the modern design is a good thing so I haven't given up hope.

 

[Emerikol]

There has to be a line somewhere.

Obviously a player chooses a characters race, for instance. There's no way the character made that decision.

So it can't be absolute.

To me, the obvious line is something the character does. You do rest for an hour when you spend HD. It's not realistic, there's no reason resting 57 min should give you no benefit or 90 min not give you more. But the player and character both decide to rest. The character has no idea of HD but also no idea of hit points.

Second Wind makes even less sense in 5e. It's an instant not an action, the character is doing nothing. In 4e it was a standard action you didn't attack, you gathered your strength or wits for a moment, at least the character made a choice.

Inspiration is just weird.

I don't consider character creation to be "in game" time. Once I start playing the character in the world only then do I want to have this in world view.

 

[Emerikol]

In an earlier thread, I got one of the developers to confirm that every hit on an attack roll corresponds definitionally to some sort of physical impact, so Hit Points should be less abstract in PF2 than they are in D&D 4E or 5E.

I know that it's tangential to the topic at hand, but it gives some indication as to their stance on overtly gamist mechanics.

A positive sign. Everything I've read so far seems okay. Only the legendary feats, might prove troublesome but really how many campaigns get that far anyway. I'm fine with a campaign that ends at 15 or 16th level.

I'm not really an adventure path kind of guy but I do believe PF's adventure paths have been good for the hobby especially for new DMs. I'm more of a sandbox kind of guy. And yes I know some of there paths have went that way.

The three modes of play also sound interesting. I end up writing the downtime rules for my campaign no matter the system I'm using. That is another old school thing. In 1e, the downtime game was big.

 

[Emerikol]

The one problem, to my mind, with kitbashing a system is: do the other players/GM/Whathaveyou want a kitbashed system or are they happy with what they have. Back about 30 years ago, I wrote a system that fit my gaming preferences completely. And I even got my group to try it. But... they didn't feel the same way about it that I did and asked if they could go back to AD&D.

This may be the problem that Emerikol runs into. He's got his perfect system (or perfect-ish) but nobody to play it with.

Since that time, I've only done light houseruling to whatever game I'm playing. If even that, as I play 5e as close to RAW as possible. Though luckily, the wording allows a lot of RAI.

I believe I can always find groups. I offer a very particular sort of game but if you are looking for that type of game it's A+. If you aren't then it's not.

 

[Emerikol]

I was puzzling over your use of metagame.
I should have just read more carefully. You can ignore my last few posts. Sorry.

I do still think that removing the offending fighter abilities and changing how HD are spent could remove any unwanted player narrative control.

I'm trying to get suggestions and not start a flame war. So I chose my term carefully. There are other terms I might have used but I didn't because I don't want to descend into warfare again. I'd like positive suggestions and not to be told to just change my brain. Because honestly my brain isn't changing on this point. I'm not telling anyone they should change their brain either. It's preferences. Like me preferring vanilla more than chocolate when I eat ice cream. If you are having fun then you are doing it right. I figured though there were at least a few people out there with ideas about one game or another that would interest me. So it's wide open. D&D, Pathfinder, or something else. And sure, no matter what I'm sure I'll tinker with any rules system I ever use a little bit. I do love to tinker.