WTF is "cold iron", and why's it so special?

[gatorized]

"Cold iron" is not about physical temperature, nor about forging.

It is about the things the fae are sensitive - emotional/spiritual/magical content, or the lack thereof, and symbolism. Iron is cold in the way that a person who lacks empathy is cold. It represents mankind's separation from the natural world, or humans taking command of their own fate in defiance of the magics of the past. Iron, and the technologies that come with it, are what allows people to no longer be subject to the whims of the world, and the whims of the fae.

Humans are natural, so anything they make is also natural.

 

[Umbran]

Humans are natural, so anything they make is also natural.

That's a very modern notion, and the "cold iron" thing is very old, based in an earlier view of human's place in the world.

And, while this is true in the very basic "cannot be in violation of the laws of the universe" sense, it is not true in the "what mankind makes is automatically compatible with the normal operations of the natural world around us." We make and do thing highly inimical to the bioshpere in which we live.

 

[gatorized]

That's a very modern notion, and the "cold iron" thing is very old, based in an earlier view of human's place in the world.

And, while this is true in the very basic "cannot be in violation of the laws of the universe" sense, it is not true in the "what mankind makes is automatically compatible with the normal operations of the natural world around us." We make and do thing highly inimical to the bioshpere in which we live.

It is neither modern nor old, it simply is. Human beings are made of the same stuff as everything else in the universe, obey the same laws, and use the same processes. Also, the properties of any given substance, such as iron, are not affected by any views of our place in the world. Iron was magnetic before we existed, and it will continue to be after we are gone.

Nothing is compatible or incompatible with nature. Again, nature just is. It has no desires or goals. If humans cause the extinction of all life, that is nature. If life goes extinct for some other reason, that is also nature. A barren world like Mercury is natural, as is a hellscape like Venus. Nothing can be inimical to nature; everything is the result of nature. It's really kind of a meaningless term, it would be more precise to replace it with "the fundamental physical constants and all properties, fields, particles, and interactions that arise therefrom" but that's a little wordy to type out every time.

 

[SkidAce]

It is neither modern nor old, it simply is. Human beings are made of the same stuff as everything else in the universe, obey the same laws, and use the same processes. Also, the properties of any given substance, such as iron, are not affected by any views of our place in the world. Iron was magnetic before we existed, and it will continue to be after we are gone.

Nothing is compatible or incompatible with nature. Again, nature just is. It has no desires or goals. If humans cause the extinction of all life, that is nature. If life goes extinct for some other reason, that is also nature. A barren world like Mercury is natural, as is a hellscape like Venus. Nothing can be inimical to nature; everything is the result of nature. It's really kind of a meaningless term, it would be more precise to replace it with "the fundamental physical constants and all properties, fields, particles, and interactions that arise therefrom" but that's a little wordy to type out every time.

While what you say may be accurate, it does not change the mythological origins of the customs and legends of "cold iron", nor their influence on D&D.

 

[gatorized]

While what you say may be accurate, it does not change the mythological origins of the customs and legends of "cold iron", nor their influence on D&D.

Any mythological treatment of iron that depends on it being natural or unnatural is affected by whether it is natural or unnatural, so yes, it does matter.

 

[Umbran]

Any mythological treatment of iron that depends on it being natural or unnatural is affected by whether it is natural or unnatural, so yes, it does matter.

Mythological treatments are fiction, and thus do not have to depend at all points upon what we think of things in the real world. The one thing we can depend upon in our fictions is that somewhere it deviates from reality, rather than clings to it. Most D&D is played as a high fantasy, meaning that it takes place on a world, and probably a universe, that is not our own. The ideas of "natural" and "unnatural" that any particular person thinks apply here may not apply in the fiction.

If a person were to do a revisioning of fae creatures today, they might wish to base it upon a modern philosophy relating to the position of mankind in the universe. But for the moment we are (admittedly implicitly) speaking about a version of the fae based on older views of the world.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Mythological treatments are fiction, and thus do not have to depend at all points upon what we think of things in the real world. The one thing we can depend upon in our fictions is that somewhere it deviates from reality, rather than clings to it. Most D&D is played as a high fantasy, meaning that it takes place on a world, and probably a universe, that is not our own. The ideas of "natural" and "unnatural" that any particular person thinks apply here may not apply in the fiction.

If a person were to do a revisioning of fae creatures today, they might wish to base it upon a modern philosophy relating to the position of mankind in the universe. But for the moment we are (admittedly implicitly) speaking about a version of the fae based on older views of the world.

While you rightly criticize [MENTION=6966901]Mike R[/MENTION] for being unable to put down a particular philosophical lens when evaluating a fictional fantasy game, I have to muddy the waters a bit. The naturalism he is espousing has a very long pedigree in philosophy, with origins in Classical India and Greece. Both the Epicureans and the Stoics were naturalistic, making naturalism arguably the dominant view among thinkers in the West until Christianity changed the game. In contrast, this...

It represents mankind's separation from the natural world, or humans taking command of their own fate in defiance of the magics of the past. Iron, and the technologies that come with it, are what allows people to no longer be subject to the whims of the world, and the whims of the fae.

...is a quite modern perspective. Technology as separation from nature is not a theme you see a lot (at least in Western thought; the Taoists were sort of in the neighborhood of it) until the Industrial Revolution and the Romantic movement. In general, the understanding of technology as a thing, and the progression thereof, was historically slow to emerge.

Yes, "cold iron" plays a prominent role in European folklore warding off fairies. But a nature-vs.-technology conflict does not satisfactorily explain why. Remember, too, that iron also supposedly wards off evil spirits, witches, bad luck, and so on.

So it's a bit less obvious why this is the case than you seem to be claiming.

 

[gatorized]

Mythological treatments are fiction, and thus do not have to depend at all points upon what we think of things in the real world. The one thing we can depend upon in our fictions is that somewhere it deviates from reality, rather than clings to it. Most D&D is played as a high fantasy, meaning that it takes place on a world, and probably a universe, that is not our own. The ideas of "natural" and "unnatural" that any particular person thinks apply here may not apply in the fiction.

If a person were to do a revisioning of fae creatures today, they might wish to base it upon a modern philosophy relating to the position of mankind in the universe. But for the moment we are (admittedly implicitly) speaking about a version of the fae based on older views of the world.

A thing is natural if it is the result of natural processes. Humans are the result of natural processes, and so anything that is the result of humans is also a natural process.

You can either agree with this or explain when, why, and how a natural thing stops being natural. For example, is an iron atom selected at random natural? If it is, does a natural animal interacting with it cause it to stop being natural, even though the iron atom is unchanged? If so, why, and what is the mechanism which causes it to stop being natural? Also, given any iron atoms, how shall we distinguish between an unnatural and natural one? That is, what must be true about an unnatural iron atom, and what must not be true about it? What do we expect to observe, and not to observe? If these questions can't be answered, then the word "unnatural" fails to convey any information.

 

[gatorized]

While you rightly criticize [MENTION=6966901]Mike R[/MENTION] for being unable to put down a particular philosophical lens when evaluating a fictional fantasy game, I have to muddy the waters a bit. The naturalism he is espousing has a very long pedigree in philosophy, with origins in Classical India and Greece. Both the Epicureans and the Stoics were naturalistic, making naturalism arguably the dominant view among thinkers in the West until Christianity changed the game. In contrast, this...

...is a quite modern perspective. Technology as separation from nature is not a theme you see a lot (at least in Western thought; the Taoists were sort of in the neighborhood of it) until the Industrial Revolution and the Romantic movement. In general, the understanding of technology as a thing, and the progression thereof, was historically slow to emerge.

Yes, "cold iron" plays a prominent role in European folklore warding off fairies. But a nature-vs.-technology conflict does not satisfactorily explain why. Remember, too, that iron also supposedly wards off evil spirits, witches, bad luck, and so on.

So it's a bit less obvious why this is the case than you seem to be claiming.

I am not particularly concerned with any specific philosophical tradition. I want to know exactly what we mean by "unnatural", and why this should matter to a substance's properties.

 

[Maxperson]

It is neither modern nor old, it simply is. Human beings are made of the same stuff as everything else in the universe, obey the same laws, and use the same processes. Also, the properties of any given substance, such as iron, are not affected by any views of our place in the world. Iron was magnetic before we existed, and it will continue to be after we are gone.

Nothing is compatible or incompatible with nature. Again, nature just is. It has no desires or goals. If humans cause the extinction of all life, that is nature. If life goes extinct for some other reason, that is also nature. A barren world like Mercury is natural, as is a hellscape like Venus. Nothing can be inimical to nature; everything is the result of nature. It's really kind of a meaningless term, it would be more precise to replace it with "the fundamental physical constants and all properties, fields, particles, and interactions that arise therefrom" but that's a little wordy to type out every time.

This is not what is meant by unnatural, though. A car is made up of things found in nature. A car itself, though, will never be found occurring naturally. Hence it's an unnatural creation.