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Revised Ranger update

OB1

Jedi Master
The spells themselves are pretty much direct fixes to the problems that have been reported about the PHB Beastmaster.

...

I know you are offering these as alternatives to the Revised Ranger, and I get that UA stuff tends to be better... but what I mostly see in your spells is an attempt to do the exact same things the Revised Beastmaster does, only do it worse because it costs spells known and spell slots along with concentration slots to maintain. Maybe I'm the wrong guy to review these, but I just don't see why I would ask someone to go this route instead of using the UA.

And those problems are now considered so minor by WotC that they have abandoned the idea of doing a direct fix to the class.

I'm looking for a path that allows those who feel that the PHB Beastmaster doesnt' fit their style to up it's power level via the introduction of new spells. That does come at a cost of other things you could do, but IMO that's a fair trade off. The UA Beastmaster basically gives you everything you want for free

That said, the spell list I suggested was a first draft, so I've taken a look at your constructive crit and tried to revise accordingly. My goal here is to have some things that work for both the disposable and constant companion style of play, while allowing the constant companion style to boost the ability to use their companion as a living weapon. Interested in your thoughts on the revisions.

1st Level Ranger Spells
Hunting Party - 1 Min, Concentration, Bonus Action, self - When you cast this spell, you gain an additional action that you can use only to command your Beast Companion, additionally, the beast gains Temporary Hit points equal to 5 times your proficiency bonus. You also gain advantage on attacks against a creature your companion is engaged with. (Combined the two 1st level spells into a single boost and added a free help action. This is clearly a more powerful option than Hunters Mark, especially at higher levels)

2nd Level Ranger Spells
Revivify Beast - Action, Touch - You touch the body of a beast that has been dead for less than 1 minute and it returns to life with 1 HP. (revised to make clear that this does not work if the body of your companion doesn't exist)

Alter Beast - Action, Touch, 1 Hour - You touch a beast and it's natural weapon damage dice each gain 1 level (d1>d4>d6>d8>d10>d12) and it also gains one of the following benefits, It's natural weapons become + 1 magical weapons, It's AC increases by 2, the DC of any of it's abilities increases by the caster's proficiency bonus. When you cast this spell at a higher level, the damage dice increase and additional step for each level and you can choose one more optional benefit. (Revised to allow additional damage boost)

3rd Level Ranger Spells
Find Greater Companion - 1 Hour Casting time - You call out to the wild to find a new beast companion that can either be Large with a CR equal to 1/4 of your level or Medium with a CR of 1/2 your level (rounded down). The beast must be native to the area that you are in and able to reach your location. If you are in your favored terrain, you pick the beast that appears, otherwise the DM chooses from what is appropriate for the area. (added option to take more powerful Medium creature or less powerful Large creature)

4th Level Ranger Spells
Awakened Beast - 1 Hour Casting Time, Permanent Duration - You forge a permanent telepathic bond with your companion. As long as you are on the same plane of existence, you can communicate telepathically as well as see through each others eyes at will. The beast can also add 6 points to it's ability scores, either all to one or split between several. It also gains your save and skill proficiencies. The awakening lasts until your companion is killed. If later brought back to life, the spell must be cast again. (Added save and ability proficencies)

Reincarnate Beast - 1 Hour Casting Time, Permanent - You focus on the spirit of a beast dead for not more than 30 days. The beast is reincarnated, appearing from nearby at the end of the 1 hour casting time. (No change. At higher levels, this spell becomes useful as you may not always have the chance to revivify your companion. If you want to make sure you can bring your companion back, you choose this)

5th Level Ranger Spells
Heroic Beast - Action, Touch, 10 Minutes - You gain the benefits of both the Command Beast (without concentration) and Alter Beast (as if cast at 4th level) spells, your beast's speed is doubled and it adds your proficiency bonus to all saves. (reworked this completely, think it is comparable to Swift Quiver or Combat Barrage. Note also that you can stack this with Hunters Mark which at this level would effect both you and your companion for even more damage boosting)

Looking forward to more feedback on these!
 

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Hussar

Legend
What a douchebag comment to make, I mean, really...

I dunno, seems to be hitting the nail on the head. Once the material gets put into an "official" book, the min-maxxer can point to it and whine and complain that he or she bought the book, so, the DM should let him or her play it.

If it's free, online, then the DM can just ignore it more easily if the DM doesn't feel like there needs to be a fix.

I look at it like this: The problem was identified and fixed. People will swear by Crawford Tweets when discussing rules. This is no different. It's put out by WotC, it's easily available and it WORKS. Job done.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
And those problems are now considered so minor by WotC that they have abandoned the idea of doing a direct fix to the class.

I'm looking for a path that allows those who feel that the PHB Beastmaster doesnt' fit their style to up it's power level via the introduction of new spells. That does come at a cost of other things you could do, but IMO that's a fair trade off. The UA Beastmaster basically gives you everything you want for free

And getting fixes that allow the class to fit players preferred playstyle for free is bad?

I don't care if WoTC thinks the problems are minor, there are lots of things they don't feel the need to address that I feel need attention, but "charging" players for trying to make their concept work is kind of a ridiculous stance to start with, IMO.


That said, the spell list I suggested was a first draft, so I've taken a look at your constructive crit and tried to revise accordingly. My goal here is to have some things that work for both the disposable and constant companion style of play, while allowing the constant companion style to boost the ability to use their companion as a living weapon. Interested in your thoughts on the revisions.

Sure, though of course, dude on internet opinion may not be worth a lot.

1st Level Ranger Spells
Hunting Party - 1 Min, Concentration, Bonus Action, self - When you cast this spell, you gain an additional action that you can use only to command your Beast Companion, additionally, the beast gains Temporary Hit points equal to 5 times your proficiency bonus. You also gain advantage on attacks against a creature your companion is engaged with. (Combined the two 1st level spells into a single boost and added a free help action. This is clearly a more powerful option than Hunters Mark, especially at higher levels)

What do we mean by "engaged with" becomes a very important question. Also, if flanking rules and melee ranger are involved, the math changes. The reason "Engaged with" becomes important is because certain animals, like the Owl or Flying Serpent, get fly-by attacks. They have attacked and "engaged" the enemy, but do not remain adjacent. But, if Adjacent is our only concern, then running up and dodging is also considered "engaged" which may or may not fit what you are going with.

I still don't like the idea of "here is a spell that lets you do what you should already be able to do" but adding in 10 temp hp and advantage on ranged attacks is pretty powerful. How powerful can be debated, since a spell like Faerie Fire will also give advantage, on multiple targets, but I could see this not feeling like being insulting as a must grab option.

It is a must grab option for a beast master who wants to actually utilize their beast in combat, and must be cast every combat, and may be lost due to concentration, but at least it gives enough benefits to make it seem like you had a choice to begin with.


2nd Level Ranger Spells
Revivify Beast - Action, Touch - You touch the body of a beast that has been dead for less than 1 minute and it returns to life with 1 HP. (revised to make clear that this does not work if the body of your companion doesn't exist)

4th level
Reincarnate Beast - 1 Hour Casting Time, Permanent - You focus on the spirit of a beast dead for not more than 30 days. The beast is reincarnated, appearing from nearby at the end of the 1 hour casting time. (No change. At higher levels, this spell becomes useful as you may not always have the chance to revivify your companion. If you want to make sure you can bring your companion back, you choose this)


Since you didn't change them my opinion of them doesn't change. And, while you say you might not always get a chance to revivify your companion, you very often will get a chance. Most combatant's don't drop til mid or late combat, giving you 10 rounds, and, unless your GM is really hard out to measure the seconds, once the combat ends and you say "I revive my companion" you've generally met the timeline.

Additionally, the person who cares enough about their beast to take this spell will care enough to take measures to ensure they survive, such as curing them when they drop or stabilizing them. In addition to all of that, three death saves need to be failed, which is just hard enough to push this over the edge.

Now, Raise Dead makes sense for the Cleric, because the Cleric will prepare Raise Dead the next day to cast it, and then not prepare it the following day when it isn't needed, but Rangers learn spells permanently, and they have only 11 spells known. That is fewer than the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster, and you aren't really going to expect those classes to take a spell like that Reincarnate Beast spell that they may use once a campaign and took as a precaution. It just doesn't work with the way the RAW class is designed.

2nd Level
Alter Beast - Action, Touch, 1 Hour - You touch a beast and it's natural weapon damage dice each gain 1 level (d1>d4>d6>d8>d10>d12) and it also gains one of the following benefits, It's natural weapons become + 1 magical weapons, It's AC increases by 2, the DC of any of it's abilities increases by the caster's proficiency bonus. When you cast this spell at a higher level, the damage dice increase and additional step for each level and you can choose one more optional benefit. (Revised to allow additional damage boost)

That damage scaling can be either pretty good or really meh. For example, the d1 represents creatures who deal only a single point of damage like the hawk, but if you break down the likely math the Hawk is really dealing 1d4-3, which will just upgrade to a 1d6-3... which is still very likely to be 1 damage, since we have a minimum of 1.

Alternatively, It can raise a wolf from 2d4 to 2d6, which is a pretty massive boost on average damage. Also, using some of your other spells can lead to other beasts being effected, like the rhino which will go from 2d8 to 2d10 (maybe 4d10 depending on reading of Charge).

So, near useless for some beasts, decently powerful for others, and now the +1 magic bonus is pretty much worthless unless you are fighting something immune to non-magic damage, because the increased dice already get you a +1 or +2 to damage on average and you are better off going for the AC or DC boost.

3rd Level Ranger Spells
Find Greater Companion - 1 Hour Casting time - You call out to the wild to find a new beast companion that can either be Large with a CR equal to 1/4 of your level or Medium with a CR of 1/2 your level (rounded down). The beast must be native to the area that you are in and able to reach your location. If you are in your favored terrain, you pick the beast that appears, otherwise the DM chooses from what is appropriate for the area. (added option to take more powerful Medium creature or less powerful Large creature)

You changed absolutely nothing as far as I can tell, since I can't find a medium beast whose CR is higher than 1. Even pulled out Volo's and checked the Dinosaurs. So, unless there is something highly specific I missed, changing medium to 1/2 your level was a pointless choice.

Also, all of my criticism of this spell from the first go around still applies. A DM who allows this spell will probably allow the exact same thing to happen without the spell, making it a moot point and a waste to take.

4th Level Ranger Spells
Awakened Beast - 1 Hour Casting Time, Permanent Duration - You forge a permanent telepathic bond with your companion. As long as you are on the same plane of existence, you can communicate telepathically as well as see through each others eyes at will. The beast can also add 6 points to it's ability scores, either all to one or split between several. It also gains your save and skill proficiencies. The awakening lasts until your companion is killed. If later brought back to life, the spell must be cast again. (Added save and ability proficencies)

Gaining the proficiencies is nice, Rangers get Dex and Str which may end up being useful. A lot of your skill proficiences are likely wasted on them, such as anything intelligence based since a player will likely not raise a beasts intelligence as their only usage for those 6 points.

Again, it is something I may consider if I was forced to play a PHB Beastmaster, but most of it is actually not useful for the player compared to other spells they could take, and once more, out of 11 spells you are allowed over 20 levels, it becomes hard to justify taking a spell you will only use once. As an Alternative route compared to the Revised Ranger, I just don't see it being worth it.


5th Level Ranger Spells
Heroic Beast - Action, Touch, 10 Minutes - You gain the benefits of both the Command Beast (without concentration) and Alter Beast (as if cast at 4th level) spells, your beast's speed is doubled and it adds your proficiency bonus to all saves. (reworked this completely, think it is comparable to Swift Quiver or Combat Barrage. Note also that you can stack this with Hunters Mark which at this level would effect both you and your companion for even more damage boosting)

Looking forward to more feedback on these!

Command Beast doesn't exist, so I assume you mean Hunting Party. The phrasing is definitely more succinct, but it goes back to ranger casting limitations a little bit. You just made a high level spell that invalidates two other spells. Now, I did double check, and I was wrong, Ranger's can forget a spell they learned and learn a different spell, so this is somewhat less of a problem, but it just feels wonky as a design choice.

Other than that... it is essentially the same spell as it was last time, just worded and not taking a concentration slot.



And, I'm honestly starting to wonder what the beast master does when they run out of spell slots to support these spells. Since they provide temporary access to being a Beast Master.... a ranger up until 17th level when they can gain Heroic Beast has 4 combats from 5th level on where they can act in tandem with their companion, assuming the Ranger never loses concentration on their spell. Then, they start cannibalizing higher level slots, and this assumes the Ranger has cast no other 1st level spells at all.

It is similiar to the paladin smite problem, but where the smite is additional gravy damage, that Hunting Party spell simply brings the beast master up to where they should be anyways.


And, I'm not entirely sure why I would choose to take these spells and the PHB Beastmaster, when I could just as easily play the Revised Ranger. Many of the "benefits" you are giving out are the exact same benefits the Revised Ranger gives the Beastmaster, so since both are optional content, why would I choose this method which eats up spells known and spell slots over my other option which does not?
 

OB1

Jedi Master
And getting fixes that allow the class to fit players preferred playstyle for free is bad?

...

And, I'm honestly starting to wonder what the beast master does when they run out of spell slots to support these spells...

...And, I'm not entirely sure why I would choose to take these spells and the PHB Beastmaster, when I could just as easily play the Revised Ranger. Many of the "benefits" you are giving out are the exact same benefits the Revised Ranger gives the Beastmaster, so since both are optional content, why would I choose this method which eats up spells known and spell slots over my other option which does not?

It’s not bad that it’s free, it’s just free. What the UA Ranger is surely would have been toned down quite a bit were it to be made official. I’m arguing that it’s acceptable that the level of power gained for the beast companion should come with a price elsewhere.

But if your DM allows it, great! I would not allow it at my table. I’m a DM who allows literally everything officially printed by WotC but very little UA material.

So, since a Revised Ranger is dead, I’m curious as to how else to accomplish the goals of that style of play, and new spells seems the best way, as those spells could be added to a future supplement without needing to revise anything.

Of course someone who can take the UA Ranger wouldn’t choose this instead, but the question is if you couldn’t take the UA Ranger would you feel this matches your concept.

If I’m hearing you right, it’s important that your companion be an important part of each battle, which these spells don’t quite address. The solution here might be making Hunting Party an 8 hour spell (like mage armor) getting rid of concentration and the advantage mechanic. Maybe add that the temp hit points can be renewed by the ranger spending five minutes petting her companion.

And the fifth level spell still needs work. I think it should be something that feels epic. That your companion has become an unstoppable force of nature.

And it’s fine that you wouldn’t personally take Reincarnate. I still believe it’s an important option to have. Heck, some styles of play wouldn’t bother with revivify, choosing to just recruit a new beast if their current one dies.

That’s also important for awakened beast and find greater beast. As a player might choose to bond with different animals depending on their current needs. Otherwise you can learn and retrain next level.

Good note on the medium CR issue. Maybe best just to lock it at a specific CR and Large rather than have it in a sliding scale.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
It’s not bad that it’s free, it’s just free. What the UA Ranger is surely would have been toned down quite a bit were it to be made official. I’m arguing that it’s acceptable that the level of power gained for the beast companion should come with a price elsewhere.

But if your DM allows it, great! I would not allow it at my table. I’m a DM who allows literally everything officially printed by WotC but very little UA material.

So, since a Revised Ranger is dead, I’m curious as to how else to accomplish the goals of that style of play, and new spells seems the best way, as those spells could be added to a future supplement without needing to revise anything.

Of course someone who can take the UA Ranger wouldn’t choose this instead, but the question is if you couldn’t take the UA Ranger would you feel this matches your concept.

The Revised Ranger is just as alive at my table as it was two months ago. Just because they are saying they aren't going to print it in a book doesn't mean it is dead.

And, I'm curious why you feel it is overpowered, and let me be more specific in that question, what in the Revised Beastmaster rules is overpowered enough that you can't port them into the PHB Ranger chasis?

I ran for a Revised Beastmaster for two years, the only minor complaint I might have had as a GM was that the wolf had a lot of Hp... but I think that came about after I buffed it signifigantly when the Tiefling Ranger ended up making a deal that slotted her into the Hierarchy of Hell and got a massive boost herself.

And even after I ended up doing what I could to represent her as an Avatar of an Archdevil, I still didn't feel like she was more powerful than the other members of the party, specifically the Swashbuckler Rogue Changeling who... he had some magic items but nothing crazy that I can remember until the very end when he got the legendary sword.

I'll give people that multi-classing with the Revised Ranger is a bit rough, and I agree that WoTC likely would have neutered it before print, just like they did with many of the Subclasses in Xanathar's guide, but my own experiences and the examples of play I've seen and heard about don't show that the Revised Ranger actually needs to be toned down all that much.

And these spells could be printed without rewriting the PHB ranger, but if they ever were, it would be a huge flag to the community indicating that the Beastmaster needs fixed, because these spells address the concerns of the Beastmaster almost one for one in terms of what they are trying to do. And, if WoTC indicates the ranger needs fixed, inevitably, people are going to ask why they didn't just go ahead with the Revised Ranger instead.


If I’m hearing you right, it’s important that your companion be an important part of each battle, which these spells don’t quite address. The solution here might be making Hunting Party an 8 hour spell (like mage armor) getting rid of concentration and the advantage mechanic. Maybe add that the temp hit points can be renewed by the ranger spending five minutes petting her companion.

Good note on the medium CR issue. Maybe best just to lock it at a specific CR and Large rather than have it in a sliding scale.

I'm not disagreeing (and yes, I feel like if you choose to be a "beast master" your companion should be useful quite often, and combat is a large portion of the game so being viable in combat is almost a prereq for it), but let us look at where those changes to Hunting Party lead us.

Essentially, the companion is allowed to act independently, as long as the Beast Master ranger devotes one spell slot and one spell known to that task every long rest. Is it fair to tell a player, "for choosing this sub-class, subtract one 1st level spell slot from your list and you will know one less spell than you would otherwise know" because this is essentially the cost you are forcing onto the concept to make it work as people want it to.

You don't want to give people things for free, but subclasses are already built in with choice. The price of choosing a Beastmaster is that you are not some other sort of ranger. You lose out on any other set of abilities you could have. Therefore, I don't think it is really fair to further penalize a character's resources, just because the designers decided not to go through with the fix they had been working on for the design problems they created.

Personally, I think it is more fruitful to simply port over the Revised Beastmaster rules, or rewrite the PHB Beastmaster rules instead of adding spells that create the fixes that are requested. Because spells should be a bonus, "You get to do this cool thing you couldn't do before" they should not be "You should be able to do this thing, but you can't so we're charging you a spell to do it anyways."
 

OB1

Jedi Master
You don't want to give people things for free, but subclasses are already built in with choice. The price of choosing a Beastmaster is that you are not some other sort of ranger. You lose out on any other set of abilities you could have. Therefore, I don't think it is really fair to further penalize a character's resources, just because the designers decided not to go through with the fix they had been working on for the design problems they created.

Personally, I think it is more fruitful to simply port over the Revised Beastmaster rules, or rewrite the PHB Beastmaster rules instead of adding spells that create the fixes that are requested. Because spells should be a bonus, "You get to do this cool thing you couldn't do before" they should not be "You should be able to do this thing, but you can't so we're charging you a spell to do it anyways."

Yes, but they aren't going to port over the Revised Beastmaster rules, or rewrite the PHB Beastmaster rules, because the data they've collected is telling them that most players don't see the PHB BeastMaster as having major problems. It's fine as it is written. What you want is a bonus. And that bonus, IMO, is fine to have a cost with it.

I do think you are right that the opportunity cost for Ranger spell selection is very high, and that these spells need to reflect that.

At any rate, here are my latest set of revisions to the spells. Big changes to Hunting Party, Revivify Beast, Find Greater Companion and replaced Heroic Beast with Beast Mode. Beast Mode is probably way OP, but then again Conjure Volley has the ability to take out 100 Orcs, so that's what I'm comparing it against.


1st Level Ranger Spells
Hunting Party - 8 Hours, Bonus Action, self - When you cast this spell, you gain an additional action that you can use only to command your Beast Companion, additionally, the beast gains Temporary Hit points equal to 5 times your proficiency bonus, these temporary hit points can be restored for the duration of the spell by petting the beast for 5 minutes. Finally, when your companion attacks a creature effected by your Hunter's Mark, it also gains the 1d6 damage on each attack against it.

2nd Level Ranger Spells
Revivify Beast - Action, Touch - You touch the body of a beast that has been dead for less than 1 minute and it returns to life with 1 HP. (revised to make clear that this does not work if the body of your companion doesn't exist)

Alter Beast - Action, Touch, 1 Hour - You touch a beast and it grows 1 size category, adds 1d4 damage to each of it's attacks and doubles it's speed. It's attacks are also now considered magical.

3rd Level Ranger Spells
Find Greater Companion - 1 Hour Casting time - You call out to the wild to find a new beast companion that be Large with a CR of up to 3. The beast must be native to the area that you are in and able to reach your location. If you are in your favored terrain, you pick the beast that appears, otherwise the DM chooses from what is appropriate for the area.

4th Level Ranger Spells
Awakened Beast - 1 Hour Casting Time, Permanent Duration - You forge a permanent telepathic bond with your companion. As long as you are on the same plane of existence, you can communicate telepathically as well as see through each others eyes at will. The beast can also add 6 points to it's ability scores, either all to one or split between several. It also gains your save and skill proficiencies and gains the evasion ability. The awakening lasts until your companion is killed. If later brought back to life, the spell must be cast again.

Reincarnate Beast - 1 Hour Casting Time, Permanent - You focus on the spirit of a beast dead for not more than 30 days. The beast is reincarnated, appearing from nearby at the end of the 1 hour casting time. (No change. At higher levels, this spell becomes useful as you may not always have the chance to revivify your companion. If you want to make sure you can bring your companion back, you choose this)

5th Level Ranger Spells
Beast Mode - 1 Action, 1 minute, concentration - Your companion goes into a state of primal fury and gains 50 temporary hit points. For the duration of the spell, your beast attacks 3 times when in takes the attack action (or 2 multi-attacks), has advantage on those attacks, does an additional 10 damage on each hit, and can knock prone or shove an enemy back 10' on each successful hit with a DC equal to your spell save DC. Finally, it's speed is doubled and opportunity attacks have disadvantage against it. When the spell ends a wave of lethargy sweeps over your companion, causing it to lose it's next turn.
 



Eric V

Hero
[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], I agreed with you earlier that the class works. I use it myself.

I am concerned, however, that it might be a bit over-the-top in some of its abilities, and wanted the professionals (with more expertise in this area than me) to give it another pass, like it was originally intended.

That desire is not coming from a min-maxing place, and it's boorish to assume that it does.
 
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BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], I agreed with you earlier that the class works. I use it myself.

I am concerned, however, that it might be a bit over-the-top in some of its abilities, and wanted the professionals (with more expertise in this area than me) to give it another pass, like it was originally intended.

That desire is not coming from a min-maxing place, and it's boorish to assume that it does.

I feel the same way. If the PHB Ranger was too weak, the RR swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.

I would have loved to see a middle of the road version.
 

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