Ridding Elves and Half-Elves of Darkvision

[Satyrn]

. . . in 5e it lets you see in darkness as if it were dim light at any distance, and in dim light as if it were darkness* within the radius.

I've never seen this interpretation before. I've always read it as both conditions only reaching out to 60 ft.

Reading it again, I can see why you interpret it as saying it lets you see in darkness as if it were dim light at any distance, though. How many other people here go with this interpretation?



*I'm assuming you meant bright light instead of darkness.

 

[Charlaquin]

I've never seen this interpretation before. I've always read it as both conditions only reaching out to 60 ft.

Reading it again, I can see why you interpret it as saying it lets you see in darkness as if it were dim light at any distance, though. How many other people here go with this interpretation?

I can see how the wording could be interpreted as meaning that the creature can only see in darkness as if it were dim light out to the radius. But if that’s the intent, it would seem to me to be awkwardly worded. If within the darkvision radius you can see both in darkness as if it were dim light, and in dim light as if it were bright light, then it would communicate the same effect with less ambiguity to simply say “you can see in dim light and darkness within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light,” or something to that effect.

*I'm assuming you meant bright light instead of darkness.

That’s correct, sorry for the typo.

EDIT: So, with some google searching, I found out that Jeremy has weighed in on this on Twitter, for what it’s worth.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/09/is-darkvision-limited-or-unlimited/

So, I guess the intent is for both to be limited by the radius. It’s also probably not intended that you be able to see in darkness within the radius as if it were bright light, even though that is the effect of the interaction between being able to see in darkness as if it were dim light and in dim light as if it were bright light.

 

[Satyrn]

I can see how the wording could be interpreted as meaning that the creature can only see in darkness as if it were dim light out to the radius. But if that’s the intent, it would seem to me to be awkwardly worded. If within the darkvision radius you can see both in darkness as if it were dim light, and in dim light as if it were bright light, then it would communicate the same effect with less ambiguity to simply say “you can see within 60 feet of you in all lighting conditions as if it were bright light,” or something to that effect.

It seems straightforward to me. To me, Darkvision treats darkness as dim light, and dim light as bright light. You seem to be suggesting that that would mean darkness would get bumped up to dim light and then instantly bumped again to bright light. I wouldn't like that . . . perhaps mostly because I've found a cool interpretation for what a dwarf sees in total darkness: I try to picture what the scene would look like if it was instead my house illuminated only by streetlights as I got up in the middle of the night to pee.

 

[Charlaquin]

Double post

 

[Charlaquin]

It seems straightforward to me. To me, Darkvision treats darkness as dim light, and dim light as bright light. You seem to be suggesting that that would mean darkness would get bumped up to dim light and then instantly bumped again to bright light. I wouldn't like that.

Well, it’s probably not intended to work that way. Logically speaking though, if you see in dim light as if it were bright light, and you see in darkness as if it were dim light (which you see in as if it were bright light), then what you’re left with is seeing in all conditions as if it were bright light.

 

[Satyrn]

Well, it’s probably not intended to work that way. Logically speaking though, if you see in darkness as if it were dim light, and you see in dim light as if it were bright light, then you must see in darkness as if it were bright light. Because you see in dim light as if it were bright light, being able to see in darkness as if it were

I tend not to worry about logic, so I'm good.

But mostly, I'm intrigued by the idea of darkvision treating darkness as dim light without a limited range and I'm wondering how many others here treat it that way, too.

 

[Charlaquin]

I tend not to worry about logic, so I'm good.

But mostly, I'm intrigued by the idea of darkvision treating darkness as dim light without a limited range and I'm wondering how many others here treat it that way, too.

To be fair, I don’t treat it that way because I houserule Darkvision to only treat darkness as dim light within the radius and not affect dim light, and add a low-light vision that removes the disadvantage on attacks and vision-based checks in dim light. But that was how I interpreted the RAW on Darkvision, and didn’t realize until today wasn’t the typical interpretation.

 

[Satyrn]

To be fair, I don’t treat it that way because I houserule Darkvision to only treat darkness as dim light within the radius and not affect dim light, and add a low-light vision that removes the disadvantage on attacks and vision-based checks in dim light. But that was how I interpreted the RAW on Darkvision, and didn’t realize until today wasn’t the typical interpretation.

That looks like a fantastic solution for the OP. He can then give elves the lowlight vision. (And give the forest gnomes lowlight vision while tinker gnomes keep the weakened darkvision)

(Yeah, I know you mentioned it right near the start of the thread, but it didn't click for me the way you described it then)

 

[Charlaquin]

That looks like a fantastic solution for the OP. He can then give elves the lowlight vision. (And give the forest gnomes lowlight vision while tinker gnomes keep the weakened darkvision)

Thanks!

(Yeah, I know you mentioned it right near the start of the thread, but it didn't click for me the way you described it then)

No worries. That post was as much grumpy ranting as proposing a solution, so I don’t blame anyone for missing the latter due to the former being distracting or disintetesting.

 

[Yaarel]

I think of the D&D Wood Elf as a nocturnal land spirit, in the tradition of the English fairyfolk. As dwellers of darkness, they benefit from darkvision.

But any elf of Norse tradition there is no darkvision, and I remove it and instead grant the Light cantrip atwill, to represent their affinity with shineshine. Also for the Norse elf, +2 Charisma and +1 Any replaces the ability improvement.