A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

[Sepulchrave II]

In AD&D and in 4e a character who wears the best possible armour can have an AC on a par with a dragon.

That's all dandy and all. The problem is that

Why can a mage or godling not forge armour that is as tough as the "natural" hide of a dragon? This is possible in AD&D, and in 4e, but not in 3E. What is going on with dragons in the fiction of that edition?

To me it makes no sense at all.

You shifted the goalposts.

 

[Shasarak]

So is the dragon. That's just a generic part of 4e.

So his armour is as good as a dragon....as long as he is also 30th level.

In ADnD you can get armour that is a little bit less then a Platinum Dragon for any level character.

In 3e you can get armour as good as a Dragon for any level character.

 

[Shasarak]

In AD&D and in 4e a character who wears the best possible armour can have an AC on a par with a dragon. I posted a 4e example of this just above.

In 3E a character can't have a +30 bonus to AC from armour. (I'm not having regard to the epic rules in making that claim. The epic rules for 3E are, in my experience, widely criticised, and the post upthread indicates that by the time an epic character has armour that will grant a bonus to AC comparable to a great wyrm dragon, s/he will be of a level that makes great wyrm dragons irrelevant in play.)

Why is a level 30 Paladin is OK for 4e but not for any other edition?

 

[Maxperson]

I've played a lot of epic tier 4e. PC ACs are in the same general vicinity as monsters. I think yiour calculation of the +6 Armour AC is not factoring in the level bonus. (Eg the 30h level paladin PC in my game wears plate armour and carries a shield and has an AC of 47; the scale-wearing fighter has an AC of 45.)

That wasn't the criteria you set, though. You said armor equal to the dragon's armor. If you add in spells and other things, then you are no longer talking about armor.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

In 3E a character can't have a +30 bonus to AC from armour.

Yes, they can. The epic item creation rules are here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm

I'm not having regard to the epic rules in making that claim. The epic rules for 3E are, in my experience, widely criticised

Lots of rulesets are criticized, pemerton. That's hardly germane. You're just poisoning the well.

and the post upthread indicates that by the time an epic character has armour that will grant a bonus to AC comparable to a great wyrm dragon, s/he will be of a level that makes great wyrm dragons irrelevant in play.)

Right. But that has nothing to do with your question, which was:

Why can a mage or godling not forge armour that is as tough as the "natural" hide of a dragon? This is possible in AD&D, and in 4e, but not in 3E. What is going on with dragons in the fiction of that edition?

3.X is in fact the only edition in which this is explicitly possible.

Can you understand why this interaction is frustrating?

 

[Maxperson]

The paladin I mentioned has no source of AC besides his armour and shield. And it is on a par with a dragon.

Strange. I could have sworn you mentioned a level bonus, which is a source of AC other than armor and shield.

 

[pemerton]

You shifted the goalposts.

Alterantively, I don't consider the epic rules to be relevant to my point. As I posted in reply to you already, with some explanation.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Alterantively, I don't consider the epic rules to be relevant to my point. As I posted in reply to you already, with some explanation.

The epic rules for 3E are, in my experience, widely criticised...

This is your explanation?

You might be surprised to learn that your experience of other people's criticism does not move me much in terms of the 3.x epic ruleset.

 

[pemerton]

So his armour is as good as a dragon....as long as he is also 30th level.

In ADnD you can get armour that is a little bit less then a Platinum Dragon for any level character.

In 3e you can get armour as good as a Dragon for any level character.

If the dragon is 1st level, its AC is 23.

What's your point? Mine is clear, and was a reply to a post from (I think) [MENTION=85870]innerdude[/MENTION]: that 3E is what I regard as an unhappy mix of gritty and gonzo, and deploys what I find an irritating degree of simulation by applying what appear to be ingame explanatory labels like "natural armour" to phenomena which clearly have a purely mecanical function and rationale.

The fact that 4e uses level-based adjustments to its stats is a well-known feature of that system. It doesn't bear in any way on my point.

That wasn't the criteria you set, though. You said armor equal to the dragon's armor. If you add in spells and other things, then you are no longer talking about armor.

What spells?

Strange. I could have sworn you mentioned a level bonus, which is a source of AC other than armor and shield.

Does the level bonus and the base 10 need calling out? The dragon's AC has those in there as well. My point is that in 4e the high level paladin, whose only non-system-mandated AC components are plate armour and a shield, has an AC on a par with the dragon's. There is no "natural armour" that outstrips what is feasible from magic armour.

Can you understand why this interaction is frustrating?

I know why it's frustrating to me. You're pointing to an optional rulest which allows a 75th level character to emulate the armour of a dragon of an insignificant level relative to that character. According to 3E DDG, Hephaestus can forge items up to 200,000 gp in value. The +25 armour you mentioned is a lot pricier than that. And the d20SRD tells me that "a dragon’s natural armor bonus increases by +1 for every Hit Die it gains beyond the great wyrm stage" which is an exact illustration of the phenomenon I dislike; while the epic dragons with CRs in the 50s and 60s have natural armour bonuses in the 60s and 70s. Which again is an illustration of the very point I'm making.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I know why it's frustrating to me. You're pointing to an optional rulest which allows a 75th level character to emulate the armour of a dragon of an insignificant level relative to that character.

Why are you so fixated on what is power level x as compared to power level y? I don't understand.