What the heck is going on with the professional RPG industry in regards to Zak S?

[Immortal Sun]

Just thought I'd quote that before you get a chance to think better of it.

Why? Because you assume I'm a liar? Because you assume I'm trying to trick you? Because I can't be earnest in the things I say?

There's a reason I'm not engaging in this discussion. One side wants to have a discussion. The other side wants to pretend everyone else is a bunch of liars.

I meant it honestly. If discussion of this subject makes you uncomfortable, you should talk about that. Talking helps.

 

[MGibster]

You are scared. You are sad. So we should all be silent, and not talk about such matters. I am sure, you are not comfortable. My sympathies for that.

I too wish we could all go back to talking about mechanics, fun game worlds, and plot ideas for our pretend games. I'm not entirely comfortable with the realization the hobby I've been involved with for nearly thirty years now has often times been an environment where many people either didn't feel welcome or were outright victimized. But I'd rather be uncomfortable and talk about it than ignore the issue because sticking my head in the sand means sitting by while other people are hurt.

If someone doesn't wish to discuss the topic on a message board that's just fine and it's easy enough to avoid the topic in places like this because you can simple skip over the thread. But if anyone sees bad behavior while at a convention or a game store they should speak up. People have a harder time getting away with harassment in an environment where it's not tolerated. Confrontation is often uncomfortable but I'd feel even more uncomfortable if I sat by and just let bad people continue to do bad things.

 

[Celebrim]

Why?

Because it's an egregious violation of the forum rules. Not that I ever report anyone, but I appreciate the irony.

If discussion of this subject makes you uncomfortable...

I've made it perfectly clear that the subject of sexual harassment isn't one that I'm uncomfortable with, or uncomfortable discussing - much less condemning. What I am uncomfortable with, as you put it, is this discussion and not the topic generally.

And I have a lot reasons for that, but ironically the letter of rules here at EnWorld make it against the rules to even tell you the first reason for that that comes to mind.

 

[Sadras]

I'd like to respond to this a bit: There is tolerance of disagreement, and then there's tolerance of bad behavior. These are not the same.

If you are a troll, or otherwise not in the dialogue in good faith, we don't need to tolerate your position. If you are in denial of facts for your own benefit, we don't need to tolerate your disagreement.

Respectfully, I'm not sure all of us agree with who or what is a troll or who is arguing in good faith or not. We each have various levels of sensitivity and I have seen many act quite hyperbolic in this thread but I would not be so quick to judge them as not debating this topic in good faith.

 

[evileeyore]

That is probably an officer in need of more training.

He probably was very well trained, in the Duluth Model.

I'd like to respond to this a bit: There is tolerance of disagreement, and then there's tolerance of bad behavior. These are not the same.

This is true. And it's great when one side consistently gets to decide that disagreement is bad behavior. It has a real chilling effect on the disagreers...

Silence, Celebrim, is tacit acceptance of the bad behavior.

Very good point, it's why I decided to stop being silent here today.

 

[Immortal Sun]

Because it's an egregious violation of the forum rules. Not that I ever report anyone, but I appreciate the irony.

Telling someone they ought to talk about the things that make them uncomfortable is a violation of the rules?

I've made it perfectly clear that the subject of sexual harassment isn't one that I'm uncomfortable with, or uncomfortable discussing - much less condemning. What I am uncomfortable with, as you put it, is this discussion and not the topic generally.

And I have a lot reasons for that, but ironically the letter of rules here at EnWorld make it against the rules to even tell you the first reason for that that comes to mind.

Somehow, I doubt telling a personal story of what particularly makes you so uncomfortable is against the rules.

I went and re-read the rules before I hit post, they're surprisingly short. I'm not sure which rule you seem to be accusing me of breaking. Since this entire thread is against the RAW, and you've been freely posting in it, perhaps you should consider this your opportunity.

 

[Celebrim]

Telling someone they ought to talk about the things that make them uncomfortable is a violation of the rules?

No, but stating "There's probably a reason Celebrim feels uncomfortable when these issues come up." in the context of a conversation about sexual harassment and rape is, per: "Say how you feel or what you think, but be careful about ascribing motives to the actions of others..."

It's a vague rule, but if it doesn't apply to innuendo concerning my sexual past, I'm not sure when it could ever be applied. But, let's presume you didn't mean it how it sounds.

Somehow, I doubt telling a personal story of what particularly makes you so uncomfortable is against the rules.

Well, first of all, if there was a personal story, I'd certainly not feel compelled to share it publicly. And secondly, what I was thinking of was not a personal story.

Since this entire thread is against the RAW, and you've been freely posting in it, perhaps you should consider this your opportunity.

Well, there is that...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Being silent wasn't what dealt with that convention staff member. People were silent about Zak, and that didn't seem to make anyone safer. It looks like if we remained silent, Zak would still be able to victimize others. If we remain silent, other men will not recognize that such behavior will not be acceptable any longer, and they will not know of the consequences. And the young daughter of a friend of mine, who I recently taught how to play, who has become a GM in her own right, will have to suffer, because no change happens in silence.

Silence, Celebrim, is tacit acceptance of the bad behavior, in a practical sense. So, no, your discomfort is not sufficient to stop this discussion.

One of my religious teachers once said that evil likes to hide in darkness. I’d have to say it likes silence at least as much.

 

[Immortal Sun]

No, but stating "There's probably a reason Celebrim feels uncomfortable when these issues come up." in the context of a conversation about sexual harassment and rape is, per: "Say how you feel or what you think, but be careful about ascribing motives to the actions of others..."

It's a vague rule, but if it doesn't apply to innuendo concerning my sexual past, I'm not sure when it could ever be applied. But, let's presume you didn't mean it how it sounds.

Speaking of ascribing motives to others, pot meet kettle. I actually took great care to choose my words as to not imply you are responsible for some kind of bad behaviour. My words meant exactly what they said: that you have a reason for feeling uncomfortable and that talking about those things helps.

See, this is the problem with assuming the people on the other side of the discussion are all liars and thieves. You start assuming things about their motives. Reading into their words and finding things that aren't there.

Well, first of all, if there was a personal story, I'd certainly not feel compelled to share it publicly. And secondly, what I was thinking of was not a personal story.

Strange. I don't recall using Dominate Person on you. In fact, I don't even recall suggesting you tell us. I suggested you talk about it. Doesn't have to be to me, or this forum. And you certainly don't have to.

Maybe you have. Maybe you haven't. Whichever way you cut it, it still sounds like you should talk to someone.

 

[ccs]

I wonder if the OP now realizes why the comments weren't enabled in the initial article?