D&D 5E The New Class Tiers

[Autumn Bask]

If you don't then I'm all far it being important. Bard healing is a great fit there (and probably more important than anything the wizard is bringing). Then again the healer feat on any character is a great fit too. It covers the in combat healing role well enough. (By the way, the healer feat is a surprisingly good choice for a tier 1 wizard).

Then, I think at least in this respect, we agree. I think we just define our Tiers a bit differently.

Personally, I think about it like I'm drafting for a team. What classes would get snatched up in the first round of picks? And which ones would get saved for the second round? Then third, then fourth, and so on, depending on how many members are in your party.

As for Tier 2, well, let me know when you want to argue that, because that's a fairly different story.

 

[FrogReaver]

Then, I think at least in this respect, we agree. I think we just define our Tiers a bit differently.

Personally, I think about it like I'm drafting for a team. What classes would get snatched up in the first round of picks? And which ones would get saved for the second round? Then third, then fourth, and so on, depending on how many members are in your party.

As for Tier 2, well, let me know when you want to argue that, because that's a fairly different story.

Even with that mindset.

1. It's only efficient to heal a party member when they drop to 0. Once that happens you don't need to be great at healing, you just need to have enough healing to match how many times your allies drop. As long as you do that then the role is filled.
2. So many classes offer in-combat healing and a feat is available in the worse case scenario that the party needs more in combat healing.

So in my mind due to in-combat healing not being a role worth excelling at (it's an enough is all we need role) and because there's so many options that can give you that "enough in combat healing" ability then I would draft roles where excelling really mattered and roles that weren't easily covered by so many different options.

It might be more useful for us to determine a list of roles and rate them as we probably rate different roles completely differently.

 

[Autumn Bask]

Even with that mindset.

1. It's only efficient to heal a party member when they drop to 0. Once that happens you don't need to be great at healing, you just need to have enough healing to match how many times your allies drop. As long as you do that then the role is filled.
2. So many classes offer in-combat healing and a feat is available in the worse case scenario that the party needs more in combat healing.

That doesn't change the fact that having the role filled in the party is important. Bards do this naturally with their Spell List and it's not even the focus of their class. Wizards don't, without a feat. And that Feat would come at the cost of an ASI. So, that's -1 to their Spell DCs and Spell Attack Rolls, and one less prepared spell.

So in my mind due to in-combat healing not being a role worth excelling at (it's an enough is all we need role) and because there's so many options that can give you that "enough in combat healing" ability then I would draft roles where excelling really mattered and roles that weren't easily covered by so many different options.

My point is that a Tier 1 Bard is just as useful as a Tier 1 Wizard + they get healing spells, and thus can also fill the role of the healer without needing to take a feat.

 

[FrogReaver]

Important Roles:

In combat healing, Out of combat recovery, NOVA damage, Daily Damage, AOE Damager, Controller, Buffer, Face, Exploration

For combat I rate the following:

1a. Nova Damage
1b. Daily Damage
2. Control
3. AOE Damage
4. In Combat Healer
5. Buffer/Debuffer (non-action denial effects)

I rate face/exploration and out of combat recovery abilities pretty equally. The only difference depends on the extent of the effect of those abilities.

 

[FrogReaver]

That doesn't change the fact that having the role filled in the party is important. Bards do this naturally with their Spell List and it's not even the focus of their class. Wizards don't, without a feat. And that Feat would come at the cost of an ASI. So, that's -1 to their Spell DCs and Spell Attack Rolls, and one less prepared spell.



My point is that a Tier 1 Bard is just as useful as a Tier 1 Wizard + they get healing spells, and thus can also fill the role of the healer without needing to take a feat.

Considering I was arguing that level 1-4 wizards belong in tier 1 with bards I think we are in agreement over the major point now.

Please don't start acting like this discussion was over something else at this point.

 

[Autumn Bask]

Considering I was arguing that level 1-4 wizards belong in tier 1 with bards I think we are in agreement over the major point now.

Please don't start acting like this discussion was over something else at this point.

What are you talking about? Please read what I said more carefully.

"My point is that a Tier 1 Bard is just as useful as a Tier 1 Wizard + they get healing spells, and thus can also fill the role of the healer without needing to take a feat."

Basically, Tier 1 Bard - healing spells = Tier 1 Wizard
Tier 1 Bard + healing spells > Tier 1 Wizard

I'm sorry if my wording wasn't clear.

 

[FrogReaver]

What are you talking about? Please read what I said more carefully.

"My point is that a Tier 1 Bard is just as useful as a Tier 1 Wizard + they get healing spells, and thus can also fill the role of the healer without needing to take a feat."

Basically, Tier 1 Bard - healing spells = Tier 1 Wizard
Tier 1 Bard + healing spells > Tier 1 Wizard

I'm sorry if my wording wasn't clear.

Then that's crazy talk. A bard can't do half the things the wizard can do. Even in tier 1.

 

[Zardnaar]

Then that's crazy talk. A bard can't do half the things the wizard can do. Even in tier 1.

It has more resources than wizards and its charisma based that whole social pillar thing.

A low level wizard doesn't have many spells, anemic cantrip damage and not a lot else outside spells.

The low level bard offers more IMHO, a wizard isn't tier 1 at low level, I don't think I would even put them in tier 2.

 

[FrogReaver]

It has more resources than wizards and its charisma based that whole social pillar thing.

Wizards are very good at the exploration pillar due to their rituals.

A low level wizard doesn't have many spells, anemic cantrip damage and not a lot else outside spells.

It's a good thing the wizard is the king of rituals. At low levels he has very little need to cast spells out of combat.

The low level bard offers more IMHO, a wizard isn't tier 1 at low level, I don't think I would even put them in tier 2.

At level 3 (Halfway through heroic).

For combat:
The bard has 4 level 1 spellslots. 2 level 2 spellslots. 3 bardic inspiration dice. 6 spells known.
The wizard has 6 level 1 spellslots (due to arcane recovery) 2 level spellslots. 2 divination dice. 10 spells known. A better spell list

In terms of resources the wizard actually has more.

The bard has small skill bonuses. The wizard has ritual casting advantages including the infamous find familiar.

 

[Zardnaar]

Wizards are very good at the exploration pillar due to their rituals.



It's a good thing the wizard is the king of rituals. At low levels he has very little need to cast spells out of combat.



At level 3 (Halfway through heroic).

For combat:
The bard has 4 level 1 spellslots. 2 level 2 spellslots. 3 bardic inspiration dice. 7 spells known.
The wizard has 6 level 1 spellslots (due to arcane recovery) 2 level spellslots. 2 divination dice. 10 spells known. A better spell list

In terms of resources the wizard actually has more.

The bard has small skill bonuses. The wizard has ritual casting advantages including the infamous find familiar.

Wizards not gonna know that many rituals at low levels.

I regard bard dice roughly on par with 1st level spells. As in a single bard dice. For example using bard dice to buff AC or impose a penalty its similar to shield but you can do other stuff with them.

You're also assuming a wizard has 10 minutes to cast a ritual. The low level rituals while useful are that great in the grand scheme of things.