D&D 5E The New Class Tiers

[FrogReaver]

Bards can heal, and I personally place a lot of value on healing spells.

I don't. Their primary purpose is to make conscious an unconscious ally. Great when it happens but generally spells like sleep or tasha's hideous laughter keeps that from happening in the first place. And don't even mention 2nd level spells...

They also don't need to cast Mage Armor on themselves/use Shield as a Reaction to have a livable armor class. As a result, they have less of a Spell Tax

What's the typical AC for a tier 1 bard? 1 or 2 more than a wizard? I don't think a difference of 1-2 is going to save you or kill you.

, and with Expertise and Jack of All Trades, they aren't as reliant on Spells for their Exploration and Social Pillars.

Expertise isn't that good in tier 1. It's a +2 to two skills. Jack of all trades is a +1 to all non-proficient skills. They are very minor buffs for tier 1. Now they grow in power as you level but for tier 1 they aren't something I'd write home about.

Divination Die vs Bardic Inspiration is debatable, but I can certainly see an argument for that.

I don't understand the debate. Divination dice are much better.

You're leaving out Song of Rest, but that's understandable. Its degree of usefulness can be somewhat campaign dependent.

I also left out the wizards ritual casting advantage but which is strangely infinitely more useful than the bards song of rest.

The issue is that a low level Wizard (pre-3rd level Spells) has to take and use spells for Combat, Defense, Social, and Exploration,

A typical wizard will have a high dex and high intelligence. A good stealth and investigation are both very helpful there. He has find familiar which is a huge perk for exploration (and it's a ritual, so no spell slot cost there). He gets detect magic, another big exploration pillar spell. He gets identify another big exploration pillar spell. He gets unseen servant another exploration pillar spell. He doesn't need to use any spell slots in the exploration pillar but he can if he desires. Most importantly he gets enough spells known to really allow him to take rituals and still be well prepared for combat. He gets 1-2 more spells per day than the bard in tier 1, thus he has less slots competing for those various goals.

but doesn't have enough Spells Known to do all at once, and any spell used for something out of combat, is one not being used in-combat.

Wizards excel at rituals and they solve most of this. Alternatively the wizard has more slots than the bard so using one or 2 in non-combat means he still has as many combat spells as the bard.

Bards already have the Social and Defense stuff covered in their class features.

Bards suck at defense. Light armor isn't a big buff. Social they definitely dominate. But then again the initial criticism was over me claiming wizards were better than bards in combat. So let's deal with that.

Out of combat wizards have rituals so they don't need to use their actual spell slots there most of the time.
That leaves spell slots for in combat where wizards have more spells than bards and very good in combat subclass abilities.
The wizard has better tier 1 spell options for combat as well.

Bards have a little more hp and ac and instead of spells may have 3-4 bardic inspiration dice to throw around.
Is 3-4 bardic inspiration dice + vicious mockery better than 1-2 extra spells slots and divination dice

Even if you conclude it is, would the difference be enough to drop the wizard down a tier in comparison?

And I assume Tier 1 cuts off at 4th level, otherwise we would need to talk about Bardic Inspiration refreshing on Short Rests.

I do too.

 

[Tony Vargas]

… And, before I go (I'll be back in 40 days, not counting Sundays), I did this up a few years ago, and just now trimmed it to consider only 5e PH classes, just a little visual on how things have changed (and stayed the same) over the editions:

edit: oh, yeah, blue is 'high for the tier' red is 'lower in the tier'

I'm not sure I still agree with myself on all points, and I'm sure things have wiggled around a bit in the last column with all the new sub-classes.

 

[Zardnaar]

Tier 1 is level 1 to 5. Heroic tier.

 

[Autumn Bask]

Wizards excel at rituals and they solve most of this. Alternatively the wizard has more slots than the bard so using one or 2 in non-combat means he still has as many combat spells as the bard.

Bards suck at defense. Light armor isn't a big buff. Social they definitely dominate. But then again the initial criticism was over me claiming wizards were better than bards in combat. So let's deal with that.

Out of combat wizards have rituals so they don't need to use their actual spell slots there most of the time.
That leaves spell slots for in combat where wizards have more spells than bards and very good in combat subclass abilities.
The wizard has better tier 1 spell options for combat as well.

Bards have a little more hp and ac and instead of spells may have 3-4 bardic inspiration dice to throw around.
Is 3-4 bardic inspiration dice + vicious mockery better than 1-2 extra spells slots and divination dice

Even if you conclude it is, would the difference be enough to drop the wizard down a tier in comparison?

I do too.

So, let's summarize:

Diviner Wizard
- D6 Hit Die
- No Armor or Weapon Proficiencies
- Arcane Recovery (1-2 Extra Spell Slots per day)
- Ritual Caster
- Find Familiar
- Divination Dice (2)

Lore Bard
- D8 Hit Die
- Light Armor and Crossbow Proficiencies
- Bardic Inspiration (4d6)
- Expertise (2)
- Jack of All Trades
- Cutting Words
- Healing Spells

Valor Bard
- D8 Hit Die
- Medium Armor, Shields, and Martial Weapons
- Bardic Inspiration (4d6)
- Expertise (2)
- Jack of All Trades
- Healing Spells

For me, it's the healing spells that tip things over the edge. Being able to bring an ally back into the fight immediately after they're downed is invaluable. Especially since Tier 1 is when everyone is at their most vulnerable.

However, I can see an argument for Detect Magic (ritual) + Find Familiar giving the Wizard a comparable Exploration pillar to the Bard's Social pillar.

However, I can see an argument (dammit, repetition) for Diviner Wizard (and the Diviner Subclass only) moving into Tier 1, just because of how good Divination Dice are. However, I think that advantage becomes significantly less pronounced once things move into Tier 2, where I would move them back down to Tier 1.5 (wow, that is a little confusing).

EDIT: A better explanation for why I value healing so highly, is that I consider healer to be a party role, and if a class cannot fill it, that is a severe mark against their versatility compared to any class that can.

 

[Autumn Bask]

… And, before I go (I'll be back in 40 days, not counting Sundays),

Are you, like, a genie?

I did this up a few years ago, and just now trimmed it to consider only 5e PH classes, just a little visual on how things have changed (and stayed the same) over the editions:

View attachment 105236
edit: oh, yeah, blue is 'high for the tier' red is 'lower in the tier'

I'm not sure I still agree with myself on all points, and I'm sure things have wiggled around a bit in the last column with all the new sub-classes.

Also, I can't open your attachment for whatever reason. It says "Invalid Attachment specified. The Attachment might not exist, or you may have blocked or been blocked by the thread starter."

 

[Mort]

Tier 1 is level 1 to 5. Heric tier.

That's certainly the official tier break.

But I wonder if 1-4 is better from a rating perspective.

The difference between level 4 and 5 it's just that big for most classes. Big enough that of you include 5th level, the dynamics really change.

For example: the paladin is good level 1-4 but doesn't have enough spell slots to really shine. 5th level comes and that all changes,

Bards have a similar shift (3rd level Spells and recharge of bardic inspiration moves to a short rest).

Most classes get a similar big boost.

Just a thought.

 

[Hussar]

… And, before I go (I'll be back in 40 days, not counting Sundays), I did this up a few years ago, and just now trimmed it to consider only 5e PH classes, just a little visual on how things have changed (and stayed the same) over the editions:

View attachment 105236
edit: oh, yeah, blue is 'high for the tier' red is 'lower in the tier'

I'm not sure I still agree with myself on all points, and I'm sure things have wiggled around a bit in the last column with all the new sub-classes.

Giving up En World for Lent?

 

[FrogReaver]

So, let's summarize:

Diviner Wizard
- D6 Hit Die
- No Armor or Weapon Proficiencies
- Arcane Recovery (1-2 Extra Spell Slots per day)
- Ritual Caster
- Find Familiar
- Divination Dice (2)

Lore Bard
- D8 Hit Die
- Light Armor and Crossbow Proficiencies
- Bardic Inspiration (4d6)
- Expertise (2)
- Jack of All Trades
- Cutting Words
- Healing Spells

Valor Bard
- D8 Hit Die
- Medium Armor, Shields, and Martial Weapons
- Bardic Inspiration (4d6)
- Expertise (2)
- Jack of All Trades
- Healing Spells

For me, it's the healing spells that tip things over the edge. Being able to bring an ally back into the fight immediately after they're downed is invaluable. Especially since Tier 1 is when everyone is at their most vulnerable.

However, I can see an argument for Detect Magic (ritual) + Find Familiar giving the Wizard a comparable Exploration pillar to the Bard's Social pillar.

However, I can see an argument (dammit, repetition) for Diviner Wizard (and the Diviner Subclass only) moving into Tier 1, just because of how good Divination Dice are. However, I think that advantage becomes significantly less pronounced once things move into Tier 2, where I would move them back down to Tier 1.5 (wow, that is a little confusing).

EDIT: A better explanation for why I value healing so highly, is that I consider healer to be a party role, and if a class cannot fill it, that is a severe mark against their versatility compared to any class that can.

I'm going to stay in tier 1 for now. I do think you are wrong about tier 2 as well.

Your biggest decision point seems to be lack of healing. There are 2 parts to healing. Out of combat recovery and in combat direct healing.

A wizard with rope trick and later leomunds tiny hut covers the first part very well. So I want to focus on the in combat healing options.

Generally in combat healing is the least efficient thing you can do. You are almost always better off having used your spellslot earlier in the fight in a way that would have prevented the in combat healing needing to be done in the first place.

However, random stuff happens and people will go down eventually. When that happens someone needs to be able to heal. But as long as one or 2 players have even a light form of healing then that need is met.

Classes that get ally healing:
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Paladin
Ranger
Sorcerer (Divine Soul)
Warlock (Celestial Pact)
Anyone with the Healer Feat.

That's a ton of class and subclass options that get healing. There's a good chance you'll have 1-2 of those characters in your game. If you do then having more in combat healers is redundant and not nearly as important.

If you don't then I'm all far it being important. Bard healing is a great fit there (and probably more important than anything the wizard is bringing). Then again the healer feat on any character is a great fit too. It covers the in combat healing role well enough. (By the way, the healer feat is a surprisingly good choice for a tier 1 wizard).

 

[Zardnaar]

Healer feat is one of the best in the game. Its more impactful for a low level wizard than any other feat they can take.

 

[guachi]

I wish they'd explicitly called the 4 Level Tiers Novice-Heroic-Paragon-Epic - but they didn't want to make the 4e derivation too obvious I guess.

I'll second the call for Basic-Expert-Companion-Master-Immortal.