A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

[Bedrockgames]

I'm not sure anyone in this thread is denying MMI as an issue. I believe the disagreement lies in the MMI definition, it's more a matter of degree.



The viewpoint that traditional = MMI is not held by all, the observation you make is only relevant from persons who view MMI as all DM-facing games or all DM-adjudicated games.



Well herein lies the problem, when people do not agree on the definition.

This is the core of it. MMI and Railroading both represent dysfunctional play. If you apply either to huge swaths of the hobby that are clearly not dysfunctional, you are pathalogizing a perfectly valid playstyle. It is the inverse of the problem Aldarc identifies. He makes the point that you are normalizing behavior. But it just seems very strange to me to take what is clearly mainstream gaming, and treat it like it is abnormal or dysfunctional. This isn't something that just exists here. I see it in communities I am part of that share my preferences. when those preferences are out of sync with the mainstream, people in the niche often express disbelief that the mainstream enjoys what it enjoys. I just think taking this kind of critical approach isn't useful because it basically ensures you will never really understand what is driving interest in these things in the mainstream* if you are always looking down on it (and a term like MMI or Railroading being used that way is definitely looking down on the style, there is just no way around the pejorative nature of those terms).

*Or whatever stream you are examining

 

[S'mon]

MMI exists whenever the GM has authority to negate action declarations

Declarations? Like "I attack?" Or do you mean "Resolutions" like "I kill the Orc"?

 

[Bedrockgames]

DOUBLE POST

 

[Ovinomancer]

Declarations? Like "I attack?" Or do you mean "Resolutions" like "I kill the Orc"?

"I kill the orc" can be either. As a declaration, denying the action leads into MMI. Denying the resolution would be a broader conversation that touches on "fudging," amongst other things. A pervasive denial of resolution can lead to a softer, defacto form of MMI. If no action you take except that approved of by the GM can result in "I kill the orc," then you're just adding a step between declaration and denial.

 

[Lanefan]

5e tells the DM to discourage metagame thinking.

As does 1e, if only by putting the DMG and MM off-limits to players.

But in fairness 1e is conflicted on this one, as in other areas of the game (e.g. riddle solving) meta-thinking is almost demanded.

 

[pemerton]

Metagaming is one of those things that people tolerate or even enjoy to varying degrees, but if the DM doesn't allow it in part or in whole, it's cheating to engage in it.

What's the GM got to do with it? It's either the rules of the game, or - if the rules are silent - table expectations ("socia contract). The GM is nothing special in respect of either.

 

[pemerton]

Why should criticism in the field of RPGs operate by different standards from criticism in other fields?

 

[Lanefan]

"I kill the orc" can be either. As a declaration, denying the action leads into MMI.

"I try to kill the orc" is a valid declaration. "I kill the orc" is not, as it bypasses the game mechanics that might otherwise very well get in the way.

And I don't think anyone here is suggesting that game mechanics are MMI.

 

[S'mon]

And I don't think anyone here is suggesting that game mechanics are MMI.

I was wondering if Ovinomancer was saying that the GM saying "No, Roll to hit" would be Denial of "I Kill the Orc" and thus "Mother May I". (Frankly I'm still wondering).

I find this MMI concept very confusing. It definitely seems to be a derogatory term but I can't get a clear idea of what it's supposed to mean. It seems to be applied to the normal processes of playing an RPG.

 

[Ovinomancer]

"I try to kill the orc" is a valid declaration. "I kill the orc" is not, as it bypasses the game mechanics that might otherwise very well get in the way.

Only if you're insisting on formal English in phrasing declarations. If my players say, "I kill the orc," I take that as the intent of their action and apply resolution mechanics.

But, that aside, only the first two lines of my response involved declarations, the rest was about resolutions.

And I don't think anyone here is suggesting that game mechanics are MMI.

I think you may not have been paying attention. The mechanic of "GM decides" is a large part of MMI. Where that mechanic gets employed is the operative part, I think. If it's universal, then you're in MMI, if it's more limited, you may not be.