D&D General The perfect D&D edition (according to ENWORLD)

[Umbran]

Oh I guess I will unblock the jerk ....

It is time for you, [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION], to review The Rules. Specifically, take a look at the section, "Keep it civil".

Because you are, at this point, far over the line. You have been lucky, riding on the grace of the fact that the moderators have been busy. But from now on, we expect you to be polite and respectful in this thread, and elsewhere on this site. If your mood is such that you cannot do that, we expect you to recognize that, and hold off posting until you can treat your fellow gamers well.

If you have any questions on this, please take it to e-mail or PM.

 

[Garthanos]

It is time for you, @Garthanos, to review The Rules. Specifically, take a look at the section, "Keep it civil".

Because you are, at this point, far over the line. You have been lucky, riding on the grace of the fact that the moderators have been busy. But from now on, we expect you to be polite and respectful in this thread, and elsewhere on this site. If your mood is such that you cannot do that, we expect you to recognize that, and hold off posting until you can treat your fellow gamers well.

If you have any questions on this, please take it to e-mail or PM.

Thank you.

 

[Garthanos]

Not really, it's possible to lie and be respectful, ;

I would say even most white lies are belittling people they are assuming a weakness or more often actually dodging recriminations. (there is a second lie where you think you are doing it for the other person). It is possible to lie and appropriately disrespect too. An example lying to hide where someone escaping Nazi Germany was to an authority who has clearly made themselves part of the problem. It's definitely highly likely to be a very good lie. even if disrespectful .. that Nazi might not be entrenched but the stakes make it appropriate.

meanwhile telling the truth in the wrong circumstances can be extremely disrespectful. Ie; Going to a funeral and telling the surviving family unfortunate truths about the deceased.

We can however say that it wasn't the truth or falsehood however that made that disrespectful. it would be equally nasty to lie doing that.

The point I was making was intent... is there with disrepect too. I see every intent of disrespect in how Elfcrusher expressed his opinion. And I read spite there too are you certain I am wrong?.

If something is done out of spite, it's spiteful, if it isn't then it's not. I don't think there is a lot of quibbling about what "spite" means.

Not necessary to quibble but we can still look and say its non-trivial and subjective to tell if its spite driven and somehow I assumed that calling something obviously popular an abomination (which we are almost guaranteed of never seeing already might be rather like that funeral scene. )

 

[Garthanos]

So it's probably "2" that we are looking at. If something shows a lack of "due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others." or if they are being impolite, or not being courteous.

What happened to the definition which included the concept of earning respect. That is blanket statement and honestly I do not think anyone is obliged to have due regards for the wishes of someone who wants hyperbolically to engage in human sacrifice or obligatorily ANY wishes at all. i do not feel obligated to have due regards for someones wishes when they are patently selfish ( leaves room for some that arent actively depriving others) or generally harmful.

Basically it doesn't have to be full on admiration ie number 1 but I see no reason there should not be measurement and judgement involved.

 

[happyhermit]

I don't know if there's any hope for this thread getting back on topic, but maybe we can wrap this up in case there is?

I would say even most white lies are belittling people they are assuming a weakness or more often actually dodging recriminations. (there is a second lie where you think you are doing it for the other person).

I don't know how we could figure out "most" but the point is they don't have to be. There are times when telling a white lie or bending the truth is done in a way that isn't disrespectful, it might not even be the "best" or most moral thing, but it isn't disrespectful. I could give more examples but you get the idea.

It is possible to lie and appropriately disrespect too. An example lying to hide where someone escaping Nazi Germany was to an authority who has clearly made themselves part of the problem. It's definitely highly likely to be a very good lie. even if disrespectful .. that Nazi might not be entrenched but the stakes make it appropriate.

And it's possible to be respectful and do good too, lying or not.

We can however say that it wasn't the truth or falsehood however that made that disrespectful. it would be equally nasty to lie doing that.

I agree, things can be disrespectful if true or false.

The point I was making was intent... is there with disrepect too. I see every intent of disrespect in how Elfcrusher expressed his opinion. And I read spite there too are you certain I am wrong?.

It doesn't have to be, one can be disrespectful without intending to. I never said Elfcrusher wasn't ever disrespectful, I said that other's posts elsewhere were dripping with it. I cannot be certain there is no spite in Elfcrusher's position, never claimed that was possible, but I object to the idea that the position itself is somehow inherently spiteful.

Not necessary to quibble but we can still look and say its non-trivial and subjective to tell if its spite driven and somehow I assumed that calling something obviously popular an abomination (which we are almost guaranteed of never seeing already might be rather like that funeral scene. )

The two really aren't linked at all. If I think something is an abomination, then I might genuinely think the game is better off without it, that's not spite.



Edited to avoid multiple posts in response to multiple posts;

What happened to the definition which included the concept of earning respect.

I don't know what you are referring to.

That is blanket statement and honestly I do not think anyone is obliged to have due regards for the wishes of someone who wants hyperbolically to engage in human sacrifice or obligatorily ANY wishes at all.

Yeah, and you would be disrespectful to them, there is no obligation.

i do not feel obligated to have due regards for someones wishes when they are patently selfish ( leaves room for some that arent actively depriving others) or generally harmful.

Ok, and when you don't you are being disrespectful, right?

Basically it doesn't have to be full on admiration ie number 1 but I see no reason there should not be measurement and judgement involved.

Not sure what you mean, but if you are being disrespectful you aren't treating someone with respect, regardless of the reasons ie; you judge a person unworthy of respect.

 

[Garthanos]

I don't know if there's any hope for this thread getting back on topic, but maybe we can wrap this up in case there is?

I considered the thread dead when he an Tony started back and forth and I blocked him when he pulled out a biblical word generally reserved and used now as an excuse for killing people in the world.

 

[Garthanos]

The two really aren't linked at all. If I think something is an abomination, then I might genuinely think the game is better off without it, that's not spite.

Others expressing like/love for it then losing it then you walk in and hate all over the corpse I thought was a good funeral scene analogy.

 

[Garthanos]

It doesn't have to be, one can be disrespectful without intending to.

And do we judge it differently based on intent? or do we just lump it with that's just disrespectful.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I object to the idea that the position itself is somehow inherently spiteful.

Its the position, not the person, really.

It's one thing to avoid something you dislike, another to avoid people who do like it. Those are reactions on a personal level, they may not be inclusive, kind or empathetic, but they're practical, without malice, merely self-interested.

But it's quite another thing to actively campaign to deprive everyone who may want it of the object of your dislike, even people you will never interact with, whose enjoyment of it will in no way affect you.

That /position/ is spiteful, even if the motivation is still merely self-interested.

It was dreadfully prevalent in the edition war. It is not entirely absent, now.

But vanishingly little of it is directed at the current ed, which is good for the hobby, as that kind of acrimony keeps potential new hobbyists from even trying it.

 

[happyhermit]

I considered the thread dead when he an Tony started back and forth and I blocked him when he pulled out a biblical word generally reserved and used now as an excuse for killing people in the world.

Others might not have though.

Others expressing like/love for it then losing it then you walk in and hate all over the corpse I thought was a good funeral scene analogy.

It shows that truth and disrespect aren't tied to one another, sure.

And do we judge it differently based on intent? or do we just lump it with that's just disrespectful.

Intent matters, as do actions.

...
That /position/ is spiteful, even if the motivation is still merely self-interested.
...

Wait, so you are using some specific definition of the term that fits your criteria, wherein something can be spiteful even if no spite is involved, why am I not shocked? Because the internet, that's why.