D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

[Maxperson]

Of course they are magic shops.

they are official source materia in 2 official 5e campaign/modules.

Then I can walk into one of them and buy a suite of +3 plate mail, right? Because in a magic shop as they are being asked for in this thread, and in the magic item section of the DMG where it says they don't exist unless the DM wants them to, you can do that.

They are shops that stock exclusivley (3 of the stores) a limited set of magic items. That is the very definition of magic shop.

No. It's the definition of a potion shop, and a few other shops that happen to have a few magic items.

"You can't go into them and buy any magic item you want."

Yes you can....there is no restriction on any of the 4 magic stores placed on adventureres in Tomb of Anhilation or Dragon Heist.
If adventurers have the money they simply can walk in and purchase any of the listed items at any time they please.

Just b/c they have a limited range of items does not mean they are not magic stores....no store in the world (real or fantasy) is a one stop shop where you can pick up any item in existance.

The point is that there are no less then 4 stores in 5e (that we know of) that you can walk into and buy magic items straight of the shelf with no restrictions beyond gold that are official Source Material.

The only thing that changes this is the DMs discretion in any given campaign but OFFICIALY 4 magic stores DO exist.

If those two shops in Tomb and Dragon Heist exists, then they are optional and only exist if the DM wants them there. Here's the rule from page 135 of the DMG.

"Unless you decide your campaign works otherwise, most magic items are so rare that they aren't available for purchase." and "Doing so is rarely as simple as walking into a shop and selecting an item from the shelf." and "In a large city with an academy of magic or major temple, buying and selling magic items might be possible, at your discretion."

Modules have to be written for the most people, so they will include some minor shops with magic items, but those are still only there at the DMs discretion. They are not assumed to be there by 5e. Modules are not rules.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm playing it as written, thank-you-very-much:

DMG, page 136: "In your campaign, magic items might be prevalent enough that adventurers can buy and sell them. Magic items might be for sale in bazaars or auction houses in fantastical locations, such as... the planar metropolis of Sigil."

Think you are right and so are DMs in earlier editions who didnt have magic item shops... though the game did give those dms more tools and guidelines for it if you wanted it.

 

[Hussar]

Didn't 4e have the rule where players could get whatever magic item they asked for at a certain level, so long as it was level appropriate?

No. It didn't.

 

[stav1369]

It's obviously evident that the poster doesn't mean no magic shops exists. He's using magic shop in a specific way that you are not - essentially you are arguing semantics (which you are right on the semantics part - but there's still no need to argue over it).

Essentially - All he is saying is that there are no shops where he can acquire most magic items his heart desires. That's true.

Its not clear from the first post as the heading is "no magic shops" but I agree it looks like the discussion has gone in that direction judging from replys of most ppl sighting previous editions and how they dealt with magic items.

So yea its a bit of both you are right.

 

[stav1369]

If those two shops in Tomb and Dragon Heist exists, then they are optional and only exist if the DM wants them there. Here's the rule from page 135 of the DMG.

I am aware of the rule from the DMG, but rules in D&D are only rules until they are not rules.

Dragon heist and Tomb of anhilation came out after the DMG so they superseade the DMG or at least suppliment it expanding on previous rules.

We see this with a host of rules that are expanded or even changed in SCAG, XTGE and other campaign Modules that contradict the PHB or DMG.

Example:

Chapter 6: DMG To craft a magic item the DMG says the crafter must be a Spell caster.
"The character must also be a spellcaster with spell slots and must be able to cast any spells that the item can produce. Moreover, the character must meet a level minimum determined by the item’s rarity, as shown in the Crafting Magic Items table. For example, a 3rd-level character could create a wand of magic missiles (an uncommon item), as long as the character has spell slots and can cast magic missile. That same character could make a +1 weapon (another uncommon item), no particular spell required."


XTGE says does not require you to be a spell caster not cast the spell for the item you are trying to craft.
You just need "an appropriate" exotic material and be proficient in Arcana.

"To complete a magic item, a character also needs whatever tool proficiency is appropriate, as for crafting a nonmagical object, or proficiency in the Arcana skill."



There are many examples of rules being superseaded/changed or expanded on in later source books.

The fact that 4 magic stores have been put into the game after the DMG rules means those rules have been expanded on or altered from their first addition.

As a DM you always have the dicretion to adapt what rules or make up any rules you please but the rules in Dragon Heist and Tomb of anhilation are not "optional" by defualt they are only optional by DM as is every other rule in D&D.

 

[Maxperson]

I am aware of the rule from the DMG, but rules in D&D are only rules until they are not rules.

Yes, you can house rule them away.

Dragon heist and Tomb of anhilation came out after the DMG so they superseade the DMG or at least suppliment it expanding on previous rules.

Adventures are not rules. Now, sometimes they have a small section of new rules, but magic items shops have not been included in a rules section in any adventure to date.

We see this with a host of rules that are expanded or even changed in SCAG, XTGE and other campaign Modules that contradict the PHB or DMG.

Example:

Chapter 6: DMG To craft a magic item the DMG says the crafter must be a Spell caster.
"The character must also be a spellcaster with spell slots and must be able to cast any spells that the item can produce. Moreover, the character must meet a level minimum determined by the item’s rarity, as shown in the Crafting Magic Items table. For example, a 3rd-level character could create a wand of magic missiles (an uncommon item), as long as the character has spell slots and can cast magic missile. That same character could make a +1 weapon (another uncommon item), no particular spell required."


XTGE says does not require you to be a spell caster not cast the spell for the item you are trying to craft.
You just need "an appropriate" exotic material and be proficient in Arcana.

Um, yes. New rule books can alter rules. Adventures are not rules, though, and the inclusion of magic item shops in those adventures does not contradict any rule. If an adventure includes a magic shop, that's the DM who created that adventure opting to include a magic shop per the page 135 DMG rule. It does not change that DMG rule, nor does it require me to opt into the shop. I can use the same rule he did and just nix the shop.

There are many examples of rules being superseaded/changed or expanded on in later source books.

The fact that 4 magic stores have been put into the game after the DMG rules means those rules have been expanded on or altered from their first addition.

Except not. It just means that the DM looked at page 135 of the DMG and used that rule to place a shop at his discretion. His discretion to engage that rule does not create a new rule.

 

[Beleriphon]

I loathe most magic item shops. I don't mind if the PCs hunt down a specific individual or collector, as an adventure unto itself, who might--might--trade for something. And I'm willing to make exceptions for, say, Sigil or the City of Brass. But otherwise? No thank you.

I do, however, wish there was more for PCs to spend gold on. Just not magic items.

For Sigil its big enough that I can imagine a fiend sitting a market yelling... "Jink for Holy Avengers, come get a genuine Holy Avenger, fresh of the corpse of a stupid paladin we just killed yesterday."

 

[Garthanos]

Didn't 4e have the rule where players could get whatever magic item they asked for at a certain level, so long as it was level appropriate?

LOL its called a wish list not a must get list, operative word "could" is not would however since the items are fairly well balanced and low impact you can actually give them ones up to about 4 levels higher without problems.

A player character who knows the ritual for it could with sufficient funds or the right ingredients create various generic (and lets be honest bland) ones of their level or below. Additional the players handbook mentioned unique items for which you need to do research or go on quests just to figure out what they do. No detect magic doesn't cover such items and neither does disenchant nor could a player expect to be able to make one.

They added rarity rules to address a problem that really isn't a problem virtually ever and did it rather arbitrarily but that restricted what items your character could just create for themselves beyond the above.

I cannot imagine the players wanting generic ones in comparison to some of the ones I make though.

Of course the artifacts rules are seriously cool.

 

[Garthanos]

While going on quests for magic items for specific items is a trope SO is heroes just stumbling upon fated weapons they were simply meant to have. Making magic items is also in a lot of fantasy (insert ingredient quests sometimes)... I am sure magic shops have a place too and having rules that cover it is useful.

 

[Nebulous]

LOL its called a wish list not a must get list, operative word "could" is not would however since the items are fairly well balanced and low impact you can actually give them ones up to about 4 levels higher without problems.

A player character who knows the ritual for it could with sufficient funds or the right ingredients create various generic (and lets be honest bland) ones of their level or below. Additional the players handbook mentioned unique items for which you need to do research or go on quests just to figure out what they do. No detect magic doesn't cover such items and neither does disenchant nor could a player expect to be able to make one.

They added rarity rules to address a problem that really isn't a problem virtually ever and did it rather arbitrarily but that restricted what items your character could just create for themselves beyond the above.

I cannot imagine the players wanting generic ones in comparison to some of the ones I make though.

Of course the artifacts rules are seriously cool.

Ok, i couldn't remember clearly, 4e was a long time ago and I quit running it! I do remember the magic items seemed rather bland though and paled in comparison to class abilities and spells.