I've much more than merely tried 5e, I was the only DM at my FLGS to stick with the Next playtest, I ran 5e at Encounters, ran intro games at local conventions - I championed(npi) 5e.
And, I'm quite interested in it's success, I just don't labor under the assumption that the people driving that success - new players, because it has exceeded sales that could be attributed primarily to old guard and returning fad-era players - are attracted by subtle details of the mechanical differences between 3e and 5e.
Rather, they're pulled in by the ongoing mainstreaming of nerd culture, the remarkable renaissance in TT boardgaming, and not repulsed before they can even try it by a toxic atmosphere of nerdrage.
While that may sound like little more than timing - It is more in a significant and hard to accomplish way: after the horrors of the edition war, encouraging a positive atmosphere among the established fans is nigh-miraculous (and, yes, that last has something to do with mechanical difference, but between 5e & 4e, 3.5 being, at the time, so well-served by PF1).
...
Actually, that's a thought: 5e isn't exactly hostile to 3.x fans sensibilities, just a little light on options and system mastery rewards. If PF2 /does/ alienate it's base, maybe 5e could pick them back up? Something along the lines of 'Ultimate' books but positioned so as not to confuse new players?
I've much more than merely tried 5e, I was the only DM at my FLGS to stick with the Next playtest, I ran 5e at Encounters, ran intro games at local conventions - I championed(npi) 5e.
And, I'm quite interested in it's success, I just don't labor under the assumption that the people driving that success - new players, because it has exceeded sales that could be attributed primarily to old guard and returning fad-era players - are attracted by subtle details of the mechanical differences between 3e and 5e.
Rather, they're pulled in by the ongoing mainstreaming of nerd culture, the remarkable renaissance in TT boardgaming, and not repulsed before they can even try it by a toxic atmosphere of nerdrage.
While that may sound like little more than timing - It is more in a significant and hard to accomplish way: after the horrors of the edition war, encouraging a positive atmosphere among the established fans is nigh-miraculous (and, yes, that last has something to do with mechanical difference, but between 5e & 4e, 3.5 being, at the time, so well-served by PF1).
...
Actually, that's a thought: 5e isn't exactly hostile to 3.x fans sensibilities, just a little light on options and system mastery rewards. If PF2 /does/ alienate it's base, maybe 5e could pick them back up? Something along the lines of 'Ultimate' books but positioned so as not to confuse new players?
Lol... new players only play 5e because it's a fad, not because they are actually having fun playing the game (and by the game I mean interacting with the mechanics of said game). Is that the argument you're going with... people don't really know what they enjoy or want even when they are playing and purchasing it in droves?? This reminds me of the old arguments that if people just played more of 4e they'd realize how great a game it was... only many did play and there was still something about it (possibly multiple things) that turned them off of it and reduced or eliminated their fun.
Anecdotally, two of the PF1 fan reactions I have been seeing are "I have all the game I'll ever need" and "let's pick up 5E."
The success of 5E is likely not simply timing, as the tabletop board game Renaissance was in full swing for years prior to even 4E, and nerd culture, fantasy especially, was big even in early 3.x days: the content plays a part as well.
The fact that gameplay styles for modern D&D and Ye Oldde Fadde days align might be a coincidence, or it might be that is the style that scratches folks itch for fantasy adventure.
You don't say?The success of 5E is likely not simply timing
While that may sound like little more than timing - It is more in a significant and hard to accomplish way: after the horrors of the edition war, encouraging a positive atmosphere among the established fans is nigh-miraculous
Seemed like it was picking up c2012, to me, just as D&D was going on hiatus.as the tabletop board game Renaissance was in full swing for years prior ,
That's been slowly building since the 90s.nerd culture, fantasy especially, was big even in
Or, it might be what 5e consciously evokes, since doing just that was an avowed goal of Next in the playtest.The fact that gameplay styles for modern D&D and Ye Oldde Fadde days align might be a coincidence, or it might be that is the style that scratches folks itch for fantasy adventure.
Lol... new players only play 5e because it's a fad, not because they are actually having fun playing the game (and by the game I mean interacting with the mechanics of said game). Is that the argument you're going with... people don't really know what they enjoy or want even when they are playing and purchasing it in droves?? This reminds me of the old arguments that if people just played more of 4e they'd realize how great a game it was... only many did play and there was still something about it (possibly multiple things) that turned them off of it and reduced or eliminated their fun.
/snip
5e only made it even easier on casters, no OAs, no spell loss, all spontaneous, multiple at will attack cantrips. At first level, casters are doing just fine, even before casting one of their spells &/or after being tapped out. But it added back LFQW - even if slightly tweaked in opposite directions as 3e, by spells scaling with slot, but save DCs with level - that's an issue.
And, compared to the prior ed, in no way a fix or improvement.
As long as they present 'L' sub-classes as equally-weighted choices to "Q" ones, the issue will remain.1. Most classes have spells. LFQW doesn't mean much when everyone has casting abilities. And, even the half casters get pretty significant abilities.
5 sub-classes, are definitively non-magical in the PH.Even the totally non magic classes (in core, there's what, 3 of them?)
I hope I mentioned it in the context of CoDzilla or effective spells/day, or BA.3. You mention the buffing - but, that's what the LFQW was all about.
They do actually need to contrive a 5MWD, yes. Then again, their at-will baseline is higher, too.5e casters cannot ignore their daily limits by crafting wands or scrolls.
SQUIRREL!I really think you're barking up the wrong tree here.