D&D 5E Tweaking Reliable Talent and comparing it with Indomitable

[Mycroft]

But the 20th fighter attack four time.

Yes, I am just referring to accuracy (there could be grades of proficiency). Also, the fighter should get the 4th attack at level 17, to bring it in line with cantrip scaling.

 

[Ashrym]

I think Fighters should get some better saving throw action, like they had in AD&D; maybe at 5th level (as they get nothing compared to the other extra attack classes at that level) they can add 1/2 their proficiency bonus to any save that doesn't already use their proficiency bonus, or something.

You mean like Indomitable? Saving throw action added. It's not that great, but it's there.

Using the bonus ASI's on ability scores has the natural effect of also raising the save bonus for that ability score, or taking a feat that helps. Action surge also allows for making an extra roll against effects that require an action to roll a save or make a check.​

The third attack involves rolling a die; Reliable Talent often obviates rolling that die. Not really a fair comparison IMO.

Extra attack creates something additional that also includes rolling a die. Reliable talent doesn't give an extra skill check in the same action, it just makes a skill check ignore low rolls.

IE. 2 attacks becomes 3 attacks while 1 skill check remains 1 skill check even if it ignores low rolls. That includes addition special attacks like shove for tactical benefits for push or prone, or more options that might be included from the DMG like disarm. An extra attack is worth more than not failing a skill check in combat (the only time it usually matters) by giving better damage per round at the very least.

 

[Mycroft]

You mean like Indomitable?

Ha, obviously not, as I mentioned getting a fixed 1/2 proficiency bonus; Indomitable is cool, but not what I was talking about (something static).

I do think it's odd the Fighter gets nothing at 5th level, beyond Extra Attack, but the Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger, do.

 

[Quartz]

but the point is, these abilities have a clear change in tier feel.

Yes, you're right in that regard; I just happen to differ in regard to the impact.

 

[Mort]

Yes, you're right in that regard; I just happen to differ in regard to the impact.

Ok.

you're saying Reliable talent has a bigger impact than a 3rd extra attack or 6th level spells?

 

[Quartz]

Ok.

you're saying Reliable talent has a bigger impact than a 3rd extra attack or 6th level spells?

Obviously it depends upon the game - I tend to like skill rolls. But let me ask you this: would you be happy with - instead of the third attack - fighters having Reliable Talent for their combat rolls? That is, they could not roll lower than 10?

 

[Mort]

Obviously it depends upon the game - I tend to like skill rolls. But let me ask you this: would you be happy with - instead of the third attack - fighters having Reliable Talent for their combat rolls? That is, they could not roll lower than 10?

Frankly, that might go a long way to fixing the champion fighter. I'm curious to see the math.

But the situation isn't really the same - miss an attack, try again. Miss a skill roll? That's often it (I like a missed skill roll as progress with a setback, but not many DMs I've played with do that).

Rogues need an ability with serious oomph to not get sidelined by magic, especially at 11+ (something that was a real problem IMO in 3.5), nerfing reliable talent robs them of that.

One thing I may do with reliable talent (when it becomes an issue, my current regular group is only at 5th): Give the rogue a choice when he rolls - either take the standard benefit OR get advantage (advantage assists with high DCs reliable talent doesn't), maybe even throw in a 3rd option of +5 to the roll (though that risks choice overload).

 

[Quartz]

Frankly, that might go a long way to fixing the champion fighter. I'm curious to see the math.

As would I.

One thing I may do with reliable talent...

All of those seem very strong - too strong, even - but I like the ideas. How about recasting RT as 'you do not suffer Disadvantage'?

 

[Toledo]

Frankly, that might go a long way to fixing the champion fighter. I'm curious to see the math.

But the situation isn't really the same - miss an attack, try again. Miss a skill roll? That's often it (I like a missed skill roll as progress with a setback, but not many DMs I've played with do that).

Rogues need an ability with serious oomph to not get sidelined by magic, especially at 11+ (something that was a real problem IMO in 3.5), nerfing reliable talent robs them of that.

One thing I may do with reliable talent (when it becomes an issue, my current regular group is only at 5th): Give the rogue a choice when he rolls - either take the standard benefit OR get advantage (advantage assists with high DCs reliable talent doesn't), maybe even throw in a 3rd option of +5 to the roll (though that risks choice overload).

It's funny the way different tables/players see the classes. At our table, we believe the rogue is perhaps the most overpowered class out there. The rogues have AC near a fighter, can out tank most fighters and paladins with their damage reduction, and the craziness of reliable talent, along with their single attack damage make them a favorite for our power gamers.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Is there any ability of the rogue people don't want to nerf?

Thieves' Cant? I can see leaving that alone.