Nat 20 rule. Is it immersion breaking?

[Kaodi]

A level 20 fighter could have, what, an AC of 41 with +3 full plate, an indestructible shield (13 hardness), and possibly infinite block reactions? So to get a failure instead of a critical failure you would have to hit 32, so you would need a natural 20 plus an attack bonus of +12. I think there are at least a few level 3 creatures that could hit and damage that. So if you had 10,000 of an appropriate level 3 opponent versus a defence optimized fighter I think the 10,000 could win, .

Edit: Ack, I forgot the fighters proficiency bonus ncreasing. So, uh, no, the 10,000 would be completely boned.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Lets look at the threat of those 10,000. A natural 20 won't hit, what do we do?

That means they can't hit? That doesn't feel right, enough stuff coming at you and something's going to get very lucky.

A natural 20 hits anyway? Insta-killed. (I'm picturing an army with ranged weapons.) I don't like that option, either.

How about a middle ground? There's a 50% rounded down chance that you get a one-higher result--repeat until you get a hit or don't have any more attackers.

20,000 arrows coming at you? That means 1,000 natural 20s. 20 doesn't hit? That means 500 21s. 21 doesn't hit? 250 22s. 125 23s. 62 24s. 31 25s. 15 26s 7 27s. 3 28s. 1 29. You're only safe if it takes a 30 to hit you.

 

[Campbell]

For me this is immersion supporting. A level 20 fighter is the equal of a Pit Fiend. An Ancient Red Dragon is a moderate encounter for him alone. He wrestles giants and is so intimidating he can literally scare opponents to death. He is every inch as legendary and fearsome as any other high level character. He is worthy of his name.

 

[mewzard]

For me this is immersion supporting. A level 20 fighter is the equal of a Pit Fiend. An Ancient Red Dragon is a moderate encounter for him alone. He wrestles giants and is so intimidating he can literally scare opponents to death. He is every inch as legendary and fearsome as any other high level character. He is worthy of his name.

Agreed. At some point when you're leaping 120 feet into the air (Quick Jump/Cloud Jump with Monk speed), grabbing onto the Ancient Red Dragon (Titan Wrestler), putting it into a sleeper hold (Monk feat), and riding its unconscious body into the ground, where you don't even take a single point of damage (Cat Fall), and you wrap up that mild exercise with a swim across the Ocean (Quick Swim)...what is William Tell over there going to do with his month of basic archery training?

He can come back when he's faced a tenth of what I have and survived.

 

[zztong]

Agreed. At some point when you're leaping 120 feet into the air (Quick Jump/Cloud Jump with Monk speed)...

This is the stuff I find to be immersion breaking, but everyone is looking for different things in a game. I'm happy those looking for an ultra-fantastic game have found a home.

 

[Markh3rd]

It makes it feel too unrealistic to me. Not that I want ultra realism simulation in my fantasy game but I do have a level of realism I enjoy. In the Hobbit Smaug was nearly indestructible but that one well placed shot brought him down. I don’t mind improbable, I just don’t like to see it be impossible in my heroic story. I guess I never realized how well bonded accuracy fit my style of rpg storytelling.

 

[RSIxidor]

I guess I never realized how well bonded accuracy fit my style of rpg storytelling.

I feel this as well. I very much want something with the level of options as Pathfinder but with bounded accuracy and simpler bonuses and penalties.

Within the scaling success model in PF2, I don't hate the 20 rule but I'd be fine with houseruling it if the table truly hates it.

 

[zztong]

I guess I never realized how well bonded accuracy fit my style of rpg storytelling.

Me too.

I was content with D&D 3.5 -> PF1. It took the PF2 playtest to get our table to look at D&D 5 and finally notice bounded accuracy and how well it fit. In retrospect, I unconsciously knew. Anytime I've whipped up my own game system based on D20, its stopped around levels 9-11.

 

[mewzard]

This is the stuff I find to be immersion breaking, but everyone is looking for different things in a game. I'm happy those looking for an ultra-fantastic game have found a home.

Well, like anything else, your individual game can have different standards to what's acceptable and the DM can note if any particular feat is forbidden...but in my case, I want my martials to be able to be badass Heroes. Like Greek Heroes, Hercules and the like, or like Beowulf. I do appreciate your support in finding the kind of game I've always wanted though, thanks.

I've always found it ridiculous that the excuse of "It's magic" lets the Wizard do any crazy physics breaking thing he wants, but the Monk who literally trained so hard they can explode a Pit Fiend into ash with a Flurry of Blows has to spec their jump super hard to jump on a two story house. The Fighter doesn't even get that, climb up or let the Wizard cast fly on you.

At least with the options available I can finally let my Monk be as crazy as I feel is appropriate, whereas Pathfinder 1e let the martials languish when compared to the casters.

Sometimes you want less Enter the Dragon, more ending of Kung Fu Hustle with your fights.

 

[gargoyleking]

Yeah, but looking at it in retrospective, the ending of Kung Fu Hustle was kind of silly, even for Kung Fu Hustle. It was fun to be sure. But the fact that basically a thousand axers weren't even up to the task of making him sweat kind of makes the fight boring aside from the fact that it was simply too comical in nature. If you'd played that out at a table, people would be yawning their arses off by the time he got to the BBEG.