D&D 5E A tweak for the Battlemaster fighter

[Ashrym]

Irrelevant.

If there is no source of such an attack why are you adding one? If there is a source why wouldn't you simply give it so we can assess?

 

[dave2008]

You know, I looked at your spreadsheet and it doesn't say what you think it says. TLDR you've forgotten about the attack on the Bonus Action.

The ranger doesn't get a bonus action damage. You only get bonus actions if you have an ability that specifically allows it. The ranger doesn't have one (except spells and we are using that concentration for Hunters Mark, all other ranger bonus action spells require concentration).

View attachment 113252

I added a column for the unsurged damage (column X) and assumed 8 combats of 8 rounds apiece and deleted low levels. I increased the number of attacks (column N) by one to account for the bonus attack. The unsurged Ranger with Hunter's Mark out-damages the Battlemaster by nearly a thousand points at 11th level. Even with Action Surge it's 750 points until 20th level (BTW you got the number of surges wrong for the 20th level fighter: it should be 6, not two) and even then the Ranger still wins. And only at 20th level does the Champion - which is not the subject of this thread - come close to the ranger, and requires Action Surge to exceed.

There is all kinds of wrong with that. As I previously noted I miscalculated Colossal slayer which significantly buffed the ranger. I will post it shortly. 2nd the ranger using a longsword and duelist per OP doesn't get a bonus action attack. Assuming 8 combats of 8 rounds in well beyond what I have experienced. Using the encounter guidelines the more combats you have the less the average number of rounds should be. So if anything you should have 8 combats with an average of 2.5 rounds. However, as I noted previously we typical do far fewer than 8 combats per day.

I have not included Volley or Whirlwind attack because those would be highly variable. Note that these abilities are usable 1 / round.

I didn't include them either as you loose 2 attacks for a possibility of more attacks. Not reliable. And I was sticking with melee per your OP.

 

[dave2008]

EDIT: The updated spreadsheet and tables are in post: 104

 

[dave2008]

Irrelevant.

That most definitely is not. Where does the attack come from and how much damage is important as the build you proposed (duelist) does not get a bonus action

 

[Garthanos]

That's pretty much why it's never used out of an encounter. It might be an exploration encounter. Social encounters tend to lack that time crunch that an exploration might (typically doesn't) have. Combat is when time matters the most and that's why combat is when we see the ability.

Action surge seems a mechanism for allowing some form of extra effort ... but it also seems pretty big gun unless you also get a big result.

 

[dave2008]

Action surge seems a mechanism for allowing some form of extra effort ... but it also seems pretty big gun unless you also get a big result.

Fortunately you do!

 

[dave2008]

Hey @dave2008, still think it's worth the effort to trying to engage Quartz's points, after the airtight case that last spreadsheet makes, based on entirely reasonable premises, that the battlemaster needs buffing?

I am getting a bit tired of this.

 

[Ashrym]

Action surge seems a mechanism for allowing some form of extra effort ... but it also seems pretty big gun unless you also get a big result.

It's a huge gun in combat. Action surge is one of the best mechanics in the fighter class in combat.

Outside of that it tends to be an option that's largely unimportant. That's not because the ability is lacking but because actions themselves have less import outside of combat encounters.

I've pointed out that it's an extra action and can be used for many things many times, and that's true. When those are important or applicable ends up pretty rare, so if a person wants to develop the out of combat options then proficiency in relevant skills and using the bonus ASI's for relevant feats works better. Option B is multiclassing and option C is playing something else but reskinning the fluff. I've done option C many times. ;-)

Bit off topic though.

 

[Garthanos]

It's a huge gun in combat. Action surge is one of the best mechanics in the fighter class in combat.

Outside of that it tends to be an option that's largely unimportant. That's not because the ability is lacking but because actions themselves have less import outside of combat encounters.

I've pointed out that it's an extra action and can be used for many things many times, and that's true. When those are important or applicable ends up pretty rare, so if a person wants to develop the out of combat options then proficiency in relevant skills and using the bonus ASI's for relevant feats works better. Option B is multiclassing and option C is playing something else but reskinning the fluff. I've done option C many times. ;-)

Bit off topic though.

Sure massively but how about giving them an auto-roll 20 (which is basically auto success could be tempting) the reason I think its important - is because I know a number of game groups where fights per day is approximately averaging .16 ... ie often not more than once a week.

Very off topic for this thread.

 

[Esker]

Hey @dave2008, I played around a bit with your spreadsheet; did a little bit of refactoring, and tried to incorporate some more details (e.g. colossus slayer damage once per turn, taking into account the chance of at least one hit, and the chance that the attack you use it on is a crit, as well as an attempt to account for distracting strike and whirlwind strike). Here's my take

Edit: Fixed the link