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WotC A tweak for the Battlemaster fighter

Ashrym

Explorer
And that is not correct. Every PC can get a bonus action. The TWF ranger is an archetype, for instance.
That is misleading. Every character can take a bonus action IF they have a bonus action available. No character can take a bonus action that doesn't exist.

Tbe same is true of reactions.
 

Mistwell

Hero
And that is not correct. Every PC can get a bonus action. The TWF ranger is an archetype, for instance.
While every class in theory can, the class YOU SPECIFIED FOR THIS THREAD CANNOT. Own it. Own your example. You cannot be both a duelist without feats, AND have a bonus action. YOU chose that criteria, not us. Own your example.

Here it is again, so there is no doubt you specified an impossible scenario:

...the other classes outshine it once you include attacks from the Bonus Action and the Reaction. The bonuses to damage that the other classes get simply outweigh whatever the Fighter gets.

Here's a typical table for higher-level PCs using the Duelling style. No feats.
 
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dave2008

Adventurer
And that is not correct. Every PC can get a bonus action. The TWF ranger is an archetype, for instance.
No, TWF is not an archetype it is a ranger fighting style. However, TWF is also a standard combat action that anyone can take. The difference is the ranger fighting style allows you to add modifier damage to the off-hand attack and the standard TWF does not. However, both options are negated taking the Dueling Fighting Style.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
@Quartz I am going to assume one last time that you are trying to be honest and discuss fighter/ranger/paladin damage in good faith. As such, please review and respond to the following simple questions so that we can all be discussing the same things. So we are comparing apples to apples. Here we go!

First a few questions about your OP. Here it is if you need to review:
Quartz_Damage_OP.JPG

Quartz, did you in the OP choose the "Dueling (Fighting) Style?"

Quartz, did you in the OP state "No feats?"

Quartz, did you in the OP assume Hunter's Mark is always active?

Quartz, do you agree that if you are using the Dueling Fighting Style you cannot use TWF to get a bonus action attack. Relevant rules:
Dueling Fighting Style
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other Weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to Damage Rolls with that weapon.
; TWF (general)
When you take the Attack action and Attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a Bonus Action to Attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus Attack, unless that modifier is negative.
; Bonus Action
Various Class Features, Spells, and other Abilities let you take an additional action on Your Turn called a Bonus Action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a rogue to take a Bonus Action. You can take a Bonus Action only when a Special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a Bonus Action. You otherwise don’t have a Bonus Action to take.
You can take only one Bonus Action on Your Turn, so you must choose which Bonus Actionto use when you have more than one available.
You choose when to take a Bonus Action during Your Turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take Actions also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action.
; TWF ranger fighting style
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second Attack.
If no, please provide an example.

Quartz, do you agree that if you are using the Dueling Fighting Style, and you are not using feats, you cannot get a bonus action attack? If no, please provide an example assumes a ranger with Dueling Fighting Style and not feats.

Quartz, was it a mistake that you applied bonus damage to a Dueling Fighting Style ranger with no feats?

Quartz, would you like to revise the discussion to a ranger with the Two-Weapon Fighting Style?

That is all for now. Thank you for your time and help.
 

Esker

Exploree
Meanwhile, more updates to my crazy spreadsheet of doom:

Added in estimates of precision attack and riposte. The spreadsheet will tell you for your build and level which maneuver yields the most expected damage, and automatically uses that one in the bottom line damage calculation. I think I'm probably giving a slightly rosy picture of riposte, since I assume the battlemaster can get enough opportunities to trigger it to use all their dice on that one maneuver, which may not be true depending on the number of combats and rounds you assume. But I didn't want to try to estimate how many enemies would be attacking you and what their attack bonuses would be, etc.

I also fixed an error in the Hunter's Mark/Hex section which was not deducting enough damage for the attacks you can't make due to bonus actions you have to use to cast/move the spell.

Remaining feature requests are, I think, trying to estimate concentration checks, and maybe some different Paladin subclasses? I might do something with Eldritch Knight / War Magic / Shadow Blade / Booming Blade. (I should probably add Booming Blade as a rogue option too)
 

dave2008

Adventurer
I think I'm probably giving a slightly rosy picture of riposte, since I assume the battlemaster can get enough opportunities to trigger it to use all their dice on that one maneuver, which may not be true depending on the number of combats and rounds you assume.
I think your probably fine. Riposte takes effect on any miss, and fighters tend to have decent AC. We can probably use AC 20 (plate + shield). So anything over 8 rounds per short rest is probably going to allow you to use all of your superiority dice. Also, it is possible for the BM to switch between maneuvers to get the rest of the superiority dice if it is not getting them all through reactions.
 

FrogReaver

Adventurer
I think your probably fine. Riposte takes effect on any miss, and fighters tend to have decent AC. We can probably use AC 20 (plate + shield). So anything over 8 rounds per short rest is probably going to allow you to use all of your superiority dice. Also, it is possible for the BM to switch between maneuvers to get the rest of the superiority dice if it is not getting them all through reactions.
But it does take your reaction. So you can only use one at most each round in combat. So your 9 combat scenario you would only be able to use 9 of 18 dice on the manuever
 

Esker

Exploree
But it does take your reaction. So you can only use one at most each round in combat. So your 9 combat scenario you would only be able to use 9 of 18 dice on the manuever
I'm currently assuming 6 combats per day, 3 rounds each, so a total of 18 reactions per day. But I was already assuming some AoOs, so yeah, it's impossible to add enough reaction attacks to use all the dice on riposte.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
But it does take your reaction. So you can only use one at most each round in combat. So your 9 combat scenario you would only be able to use 9 of 18 dice on the manuever
Do you mean rounds? 9 combats would be approx. 18-27 rounds which gives plenty of opportunity for reactions w/ riposte.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
I'm currently assuming 6 combats per day, 3 rounds each, so a total of 18 reactions per day. But I was already assuming some AoOs, so yeah, it's impossible to add enough reaction attacks to use all the dice on riposte.
Personally, I think the important thing is whether or not all the maneuvers are used between short rests. If the come by reaction or bonus action is less important. Or am I missing something?
 

Esker

Exploree
Personally, I think the important thing is whether or not all the maneuvers are used between short rests. If the come by reaction or bonus action is less important. Or am I missing something?
Well they offer different amounts of damage. For the PAM spear and shield dueling build I'm looking at currently, riposte attacks are worth more per die than other things. So it's biased upward to assume you get to use all your dice on those.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
Well they offer different amounts of damage. For the PAM spear and shield dueling build I'm looking at currently, riposte attacks are worth more per die than other things. So it's biased upward to assume you get to use all your dice on those.
Can you use PAM w/ Dueling? Dueling requires one hand be empty and PAM weapons are two handed (though I guess the quarterstaff is versatile).
 

Quartz

Explorer
Quartz, did you in the OP choose the "Dueling (Fighting) Style?"
Yes. I could have chosen another fighting style. Actually, when I first tried to post, I showed several.

<snippage>

You are being deliberately obtuse. I have answered all those questions elsewhere in the thread. You keep including surge damage when I specifically exclude it.
 

Esker

Exploree
You are being deliberately obtuse. I have answered all those questions elsewhere in the thread. You keep including surge damage when I specifically exclude it.
When about nine people are telling you the same thing and literally no one is agreeing with you, it might be time to come to the realization that you are the only rationale person and the world is out to get you. Someday you'll show them! You just have to stick to your guns no matter what! I mean look at Galileo! You're probably just like Galileo!
 

dave2008

Adventurer
Yes. I could have chosen another fighting style. Actually, when I first tried to post, I showed several.
Great! Let's try to agree on some parameters then. Are you in for discussing the damage of a TWF ranger? If so, would you like to set the parameters or should I?

You are being deliberately obtuse. I have answered all those questions elsewhere in the thread. You keep including surge damage when I specifically exclude it.
I may have been obtuse, but it was not deliberate. I can see it now that I step back and look at my post, but I was just trying to be precise as I truly do not understand what you know / understand rules wise. They you react or ignore post is confusing to me. For instance, I don't believe you have ever clarified (and i have looked) that you understand a dueling style ranger, with no feats, does not get a bonus attack. You keep saying (paraphrasing): "100% bonus actions" & "bonus action source is irrelevant - you get them!" Which implies you don't understand that fact. But maybe you have dropped the Dueling style discussion, if so you never acknowledged it (that I can see).

Everyone in this discussion is including action surge because it makes sense to everyone, except apparently you. The class is clearly designed to include action surge damage and that is by far the most common usage of actions surge (heck I know people who didn't realize it could be used otherwise). Yes, one could choose to use it otherwise. But if that is your argument, the same applies to Hunter's Mark. For example HM is not a given. It has to be spell chosen (Action surge is a class feature - all fighters get it). Furthermore, it is a concentration spell. If a range wants to do something else with concentration (similar to a fighter choosing to use action surge for something other than attacking), it looses the HM. The ranger must also use a bonus action to switch HM to a new target, and HM is lost and has to be recast if the ranger looses concentration. They only way for a fighter to loose its action surge is to use it. Though it could not get recharged if there are no short rests. So the are broadly very similar. It makes sense to include them both, this is clear to almost everyone.
 

Paul Farquhar

Adventurer
Now you need to add into the spreadsheet the additional party damage that battlemasters set up by enabling sneak attack from rogue allies. One, two or three rogue allies should be sufficient.

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;)
 

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