D&D 5E A tweak for the Battlemaster fighter

[dave2008]

Because when you use a high level slot you can have it permanently on.

But that is a choice. If the ranger wants to use another concentration spell, they can't use hunter's mark. By your own metric it is not baseline damage. Just like the fighter has to chose to use action surge for combat (though I have never seen it used any other way).

 

[dave2008]

If that's the maneuver you are going with (probably a decent choice overall), then the bonus damage that you never waste does becomes sometimes wasted with this maneuver. You'll have to refigure the whole battlemaster maneuver damage portion by including that maneuver.

BTW, collosus slayer also applies on OA's

Thanks! I will look at the BM reaction damage again, but I think I have it right. I did add the collosus slayer to the reactions, but I haven't posted that version yet.

Is there any other way for the ranger to get a reaction attack accept OAs? I didn't see one.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

For your original request: maybe you could steal from some moves in 13th Age? Like, you do a normal attack roll, and if you beat the target AC by 10+, you get to do a Maneuver. At BM's capstone level, you could generate a maneuver on a success by 5+.

You'd still get to choose new maneuvers and increase your dice size at higher level

 

[dave2008]

OK, I have updated my spreadsheet and corrected some errors (thank you @FrogReaver for the help). You can download it and mess around with as you want. In theory you only need to change the cells in yellow (not yellowed in the images below): Fighter / Ranger Damage Spreadsheet

EDIT: Updated spreadsheet attached.

OK, a few assumptions:

1. I gave Hunter's Mark and Colossal slayer to every attack. This overestimates the Ranger damage to some degree, but since in theory they could be on every attack I just included them.
   1. This probably has a larger impact at level 6 than it does later, so the charts are most off at this level and more accurate at later levels.
2. I assumed the fighter used all action surges for damage. Same as #1, but even more likely to be accurate.
3. I assumed with at least 3 combats per day and 3 rounds per combat, the battlemaster can use all of its maneuvers and uses them for damage. This is basically the exact same reason as #1. We could assume something different, but if we are assuming #1 it makes sense to assume #3.
4. I assumed a Longsword and duelist for both the Ranger and Battlemaster fighter, but a greatsword for the Champion fighter.
5. I assumed 2 short rests per day. If you increase the # of short rests it increases the fighters damage potential. You can mess around with that in the spreadsheet.
6. No feats
7. No magic weapons.
8. Point buy ability scores.

Now on to the analysis!

EDIT: Updated tables below.

5 combats / day with 3 rounds / combat and 2 short rest

8 combats / day with 3 rounds / combat and 2 short rest

4 combats / day with varied rounds / combat and 2 short rest

8 combats / day with 8 rounds / combat and 2 short rest

So, this new more accurate spreadsheet has changed my mind. The fighter is indeed better at dealing damage from 11th level on (within the assumptions listed above). In all scenarios it is just better from 11th level on. I guess if you did more combats or had less short rights that would change.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

This analysis seems more realistic. However, there are still a few things not included:

1) Trivial fights. Some combat encounters probably shouldn't be counted against encounters per day since they don't actually expend resources.

2) Ability to increase damage at a key point in a fight. The thing that often actually makes the difference between winning and losing is "can we take down the monster before it can get in another round of attacks". This is where abilities that boost damage significantly for one round (Action Surge, Smite) really win out over always-on abilities like Hunter's Mark.

 

[Esker]

OK, I have updated my spreadsheet and corrected some errors
<snip>

Nice work. I think the tables up until the point when you add maneuvers in are pretty meaningless, since you've incorporated subclass features for Hunter and Champion but not for Battlemaster.

Also worth noting that if you are just using maneuvers that add the superiority die to damage on a hit, these do other things besides damage as well (for example, giving an ally advantage), and so they produce extra indirect damage that isn't accounted for here, whereas Champion and Hunter aren't doing anything extra, so the analysis underrates the Battlemaster. The maneuvers that are really purely about direct damage are precision attack and riposte, and are worth more damage per use than the value of the superiority die.

Another minor thing: it looks like you gave the Ranger an ASI at 6th.

 

[dave2008]

This analysis seems more realistic. However, there are still a few things not included:

1) Trivial fights. Some combat encounters probably shouldn't be counted against encounters per day since they don't actually expend resources.

2) Ability to increase damage at a key point in a fight. The thing that often actually makes the difference between winning and losing is "can we take down the monster before it can get in another round of attacks". This is where abilities that boost damage significantly for one round (Action Surge, Smite) really win out over always-on abilities like Hunter's Mark.

True, and there are also things outside of damaging dealing that are important. I would put those, but I am not sure how, or that I want to take the time to do it. However, I am beginning to think it was a mistake to give colossal slayer on every attack. I may change that.

 

[dave2008]

Nice work. I think the tables up until the point when you add maneuvers in are pretty meaningless, since you've incorporated subclass features for Hunter and Champion but not for Battlemaster.

I agree completely. I just started at the cut-off point Quartz made and then kept adding more features when I made the spreadsheet so I thought I would record the changes.

Also worth noting that if you are just using maneuvers that add the superiority die to damage on a hit, these do other things besides damage as well (for example, giving an ally advantage), and so they produce extra indirect damage that isn't accounted for here, whereas Champion and Hunter aren't doing anything extra, so the analysis underrates the Battlemaster. The maneuvers that are really purely about direct damage are precision attack and riposte, and are worth more damage per use than the value of the superiority die.

Good point, but much more difficult to account for that IMO.

Another minor thing: it looks like you gave the Ranger an ASI at 6th.

They get one at 4th. I assume this is to take the primary damage stat to max.

 

[Esker]

I am beginning to think it was a mistake to give colossal slayer on every attack. I may change that.

Colossus Slayer is limited to once per round, isn't it?

Edit: Once per turn, rather. So should be there on the OAs, but only one on-turn attack per round.

I agree completely. I just started at the cut-off point Quartz made and then kept adding more features when I made the spreadsheet so I thought I would record the changes.

Yeah, I know you agree. Just reiterating that Quartz's cutoff is nonsense.

Good point, but much more difficult to account for that IMO.

Two relatively simple possibilities:
(1) assume distracting strike, so that you upgrade one attack per round from non-advantage to advantage, assuming the other character has the same ability mod as the ranger, and use a conservative attack damage amount (1d6+ability, say, with no fighting style).

At 65% baseline to hit, advantage becomes 87.75% to hit, for a net gain of 22.75% of 3.5+abi; between 1.5-2.0 extra damage per die, as a lowball estimate.

or (2) assume riposte. If you have at least as many opportunities as dice, then you get 0.65 * (normal damage + die value) out of each one. To be conservative, you could assume that the proportion of the time it triggers is something like 25%, and if this number times the number of rounds per short rest is less than the number of superiority dice, then use that amount instead as the number of uses you get

Or a more complex possibility:
(3) See the thread I posted a while back comparing arcane trickster to eldritch knight, where @FrogReaver and I had a side conversation where we worked out the damage value of Precision Attack

They get one at 4th. I assume this is to take the primary damage stat to max.

You need two ASIs to do that if using point buy or standard array, so the Fighter will max their attack stat at 6th, but the ranger has to wait until 8th.

 

[Quartz]

In which case, you should assume that Action Surge is used for damage, because that is how it is ordinarily used.

No. Because it is a 1 round surge. As such I discount it for the same reason I discount Paladin smites.

I have never, ever, ever seen or heard of it being used out of combat. It would be pointless, because time is rarely an issue (especially for fighters who tend not to be the person disabling traps etc).

So you've never had a PC use Action Surge for an extra move or to repeat an ability check or to use an item such as a potion or any of its other uses?