D&D 5E A tweak for the Battlemaster fighter

[dave2008]

Again I ask, why are you assuming the Fighter uses Action Surge for combat?

Similarly, why are you assuming hunter's mark? The Ranger has a lot of other options to use a concentration spell.

 

[FrogReaver]

Pretty much anything that takes an action can be done. The most common thing outside of attacking I've used it for is "can spend an action to..." like web or entangle so I could break free and still have an action to attack. A failed check usually means "no progress" and it's tempting to reattempt but the opportunity cost for when I really need the action surge prevents it. If I know I can short rest then it's more likely to be spent outside of combat, but then it's available again for the next combat so doesn't prevent being applied.

I would have attributed action surge breaking you free out of a web so that you can use your action and attack to be granting an attack action because without the action surge you couldn't have otherwise attacked or would have done so at disadvantage.

 

[FrogReaver]

@Quartz and @FrogReaver , I need some help here. I added the ranger to my spreadsheet, see below. However, we don't have a ranger in my group and I am not very familiar with them. Just reading through the PHB (no feats) and generously applying duelist, colossal slayer, and hunter's mark I am still way below fighter damage after level 1. What am I missing?

View attachment 113236

EDIT: I caught one error. Still way off from fighter damage.

Collosus slayer benefits from extra attack similar to how sneak attack does. I'm not sure you are factoring that in. That said, you probably could have just looked at the gloom stalker ranger as he seems to be the more popular ranger subclass these days. The single extra attack doing d8 extra damage at the beginning of every combat is super easy to calculate.

Outside the damage subclass ability and hunter's mark there's really not much a ranger gets for damage.

 

[Ashrym]

I would have attributed action surge breaking you free out of a web so that you can use your action and attack to be granting an attack action because without the action surge you couldn't have otherwise attacked or would have done so at disadvantage.

It's an action to break free, a move, and an action to attack. I don't think it makes any real difference whether it's the attack action or the action surge on breaking free, tbh, but in one example I was webbed on held action attempting to interrupt my movement after I had attacked and I used the action surge to break free and continue moving.

 

[FrogReaver]

@Quartz , I decided to do a spreadsheet that covers all items and shows all the work. I have only added the fighter so far (see below), but I will add the ranger some time soon. As you can see, if you don't account for the BM and surge damage you are leaving a lot of damage off the table. You have to account for these.

View attachment 113234

The green columns are damage per combat, the orange columns damage per day and the red text is keyed to number of short rests. Currently I have it set to the ideal of the fighter: 3 combats and 2 short rests. After I get the ranger added I will look at other combinations or # of combats and short rests.

EDIT: Also note that if you add magic weapons (currently set at 0) it changes the damage amounts quite a bit, more so for the fighter because they rely on multiple attacks.

EDIT 2: I revised the table as I realized I forgot to account for accuracy on the reaction damage. FYI, bonus BM damage is only on a hit, so accuracy is no issue there.

The rangers damage is low because you only have 9 rounds of combat in your day. Anytime you have a day with that few rounds then short and long rest abilities value is amplified. This is by far the biggest factor.

You doubled both action surge damage and the number of action surges at level 20. You need to remove the double action surge damage. It should equal your combat round Damage (not be twice that).

Another issue the fighter's Reaction damage being higher than the rangers. It should be the other way around. It looks like you've given the fighter more reactions per combat but not the ranger.

Both classes should be using duelist and a longsword. Putting their base weapon damage on even footing. (Doesn't amount to much)

Rangers don't get Hunter's mark till level 2

Crits weren't accounted for which while the ranger has higher dice damage per attack, the fighter makes a lot more attacks. I'm not sure who crits actually favor.

 

[dave2008]

The rangers damage is low because you only have 9 rounds of combat in your day. Anytime you have a day with that few rounds then short and long rest abilities value is amplified. This is by far the biggest factor.

That is true, but when I took it 8 combats a day the fighter was still on top; however...

You doubled both action surge damage and the number of action surges at level 20. You need to remove the double action surge damage. It should equal your combat round Damage (not be twice that).

Thanks for catching that, I was wondering why there was such a huge jump at 20. I thought it was the extra surge (@ 17th) and the extra action. Corrected!

YAnother issue the fighter's Reaction damage being higher than the rangers. It should be the other way around. It looks like you've given the fighter more reactions per combat but not the ranger.

Why is that? The battlemaster is virtually guaranteed an attack reaction per round. Either through its maneuvers or OA. How does the ranger get reactions other than OA, I didn't see anything obvious (but like I said we don't have one in our group)?

Both classes should be using duelist and a longsword. Putting their base weapon damage on even footing. (Doesn't amount to much)

I gave the fighter a greatsword, but I did give the ranger a longsword with duelist.

Rangers don't get Hunter's mark till level 2

Corrected!

Crits weren't accounted for which while the ranger has higher dice damage per attack, the fighter makes a lot more attacks. I'm not sure who crits actually favor.

Yes, I could be wrong but I think this would favor the fighter.

 

[dave2008]

Collosus slayer benefits from extra attack similar to how sneak attack does. I'm not sure you are factoring that in.

I had forgotten to add to the reaction attack, but it is on all other attacks. That is corrected now. It is getting much closer to fighter damage now.

 

[Esker]

Crits weren't accounted for which while the ranger has higher dice damage per attack, the fighter makes a lot more attacks. I'm not sure who crits actually favor.

Crits favor whoever has a higher share of their damage in dice. Their expected contribution is just the crit chance times the dice part of the damage from all your attacks (assuming a constant to-crit chance; if you're including an effect that gives advantage on one attack per round, then you've got to break it out). But average crit damage is pretty tiny to begin with (amounts to the equivalent of between +1/2 to hit and +1 to hit), so factoring it in isn't likely to tip the scales unless we're dealing with a crit-fishing build.

 

[FrogReaver]

Why is that? The battlemaster is virtually guaranteed an attack reaction per round. Either through its maneuvers or OA. How does the ranger get reactions other than OA, I didn't see anything obvious (but like I said we don't have one in our group)?

If that's the maneuver you are going with (probably a decent choice overall), then the bonus damage that you never waste does becomes sometimes wasted with this maneuver. You'll have to refigure the whole battlemaster maneuver damage portion by including that maneuver.

BTW, collosus slayer also applies on OA's

 

[Garthanos]

Pretty much anything that takes an action can be done. The most common thing outside of attacking I've used it for is "can spend an action to..." like web or entangle so I could break free and still have an action to attack. A failed check usually means "no progress" and it's tempting to reattempt but the opportunity cost for when I really need the action surge prevents it. If I know I can short rest then it's more likely to be spent outside of combat, but then it's available again for the next combat so doesn't prevent being applied.

To me a significant skill use ought to have potential implications if you can for the most part just retry stuff let people take 20 and get it done is actually reasonable. And if you can just re-roll next round it better be very time sensitive or no way you want to spend that action surge why bother.