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WotC A tweak for the Battlemaster fighter

Ashrym

Explorer
To me a significant skill use ought to have potential implications if you can for the most part just retry stuff let people take 20 and get it done is actually reasonable. And if you can just re-roll next round it better be very time sensitive or no way you want to spend that action surge why bother.
That's pretty much why it's never used out of an encounter. It might be an exploration encounter. Social encounters tend to lack that time crunch that an exploration might (typically doesn't) have. Combat is when time matters the most and that's why combat is when we see the ability.

If someone is dangling from a cliff and falls due to a critical failure (used in some campaigns) I would allow action surge to repeat the check before the fall, personally. It's almost like advantage on a check already so allowing such an application isn't a stretch either. I would allow that too if a fighter wanted to use action surge that way even if it's stretching the rules a bit.

Because when you use a high level slot you can have it permanently on.
That's not true. The ranger has to give it up to cast any other concentration spells, assuming the ranger even took the spell in the first place. All fighters have action surge. This topic is specific to battlemasters and all battlemasters have superiority dice and maneuvers.
 

Esker

Exploree
Quarts stipulated the dueling style so that is what I used.
Oh, ok then I have no idea where the bonus action damage is supposed to come from. There are no bonus action spells on the ranger list that don't compete with Hunter's Mark for concentration, as far as I can tell.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
Correct me if I'm wrong but that table is missing the Bonus Attack. You're also limiting combats to 3 rounds.
The designers seem to assume three rounds (that is how DPR is calculated for monsters in the DMG) for combat. However, if you change the number of rounds in the spreadsheet, everything updates automatically.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
Oh, ok then I have no idea where the bonus action damage is supposed to come from. There are no bonus action spells on the ranger list that don't compete with Hunter's Mark for concentration, as far as I can tell.
That was my understanding as well.
 

Esker

Exploree
One ranger feature that could be included is Whirlwind Attack from 11th on. Sometimes they will get more than two attacks, if they are being swarmed. But I don't know what proportion of the time to assume this comes into play.
 

Quartz

Explorer
OK, I have updated my spreadsheet
You know, I looked at your spreadsheet and it doesn't say what you think it says. TLDR you've forgotten about the attack on the Bonus Action.

fighter damage.jpg


I added a column for the unsurged damage (column X) and assumed 8 combats of 8 rounds apiece and deleted low levels. I increased the number of attacks (column N) by one to account for the bonus attack. The unsurged Ranger with Hunter's Mark out-damages the Battlemaster by nearly a thousand points at 11th level. Even with Action Surge it's 750 points until 20th level (BTW you got the number of surges wrong for the 20th level fighter: it should be 6, not two) and even then the Ranger still wins. And only at 20th level does the Champion - which is not the subject of this thread - come close to the ranger, and requires Action Surge to exceed.

I have not included Volley or Whirlwind attack because those would be highly variable. Note that these abilities are usable 1 / round.

I then added in the Paladin:

paladin damage.jpg


I've omitted surge damage because calculating smites is difficult.

You'll note that the 11th level Paladin outdamages the 11th level BM Fighter by 300 points and it's only at 20th level that the BM out-damages the Paladin.
 

Esker

Exploree
Hey @dave2008, still think it's worth the effort to trying to engage Quartz's points, after the airtight case that last spreadsheet makes, based on entirely reasonable premises, that the battlemaster needs buffing?
 

Esker

Exploree
(While you think about it, I'll just be over here helping myself to this bowl full of all the cherries that Quartz has so carefully and painstakingly been picking during this thread. Actually, come to think of it, I think these must be Goodberries, since they clearly took supernatural powers to conjure forth...)
 

dave2008

Adventurer
You know, I looked at your spreadsheet and it doesn't say what you think it says. TLDR you've forgotten about the attack on the Bonus Action.
The ranger doesn't get a bonus action damage. You only get bonus actions if you have an ability that specifically allows it. The ranger doesn't have one (except spells and we are using that concentration for Hunters Mark, all other ranger bonus action spells require concentration).

View attachment 113252

I added a column for the unsurged damage (column X) and assumed 8 combats of 8 rounds apiece and deleted low levels. I increased the number of attacks (column N) by one to account for the bonus attack. The unsurged Ranger with Hunter's Mark out-damages the Battlemaster by nearly a thousand points at 11th level. Even with Action Surge it's 750 points until 20th level (BTW you got the number of surges wrong for the 20th level fighter: it should be 6, not two) and even then the Ranger still wins. And only at 20th level does the Champion - which is not the subject of this thread - come close to the ranger, and requires Action Surge to exceed.
There is all kinds of wrong with that. As I previously noted I miscalculated Colossal slayer which significantly buffed the ranger. I will post it shortly. 2nd the ranger using a longsword and duelist per OP doesn't get a bonus action attack. Assuming 8 combats of 8 rounds in well beyond what I have experienced. Using the encounter guidelines the more combats you have the less the average number of rounds should be. So if anything you should have 8 combats with an average of 2.5 rounds. However, as I noted previously we typical do far fewer than 8 combats per day.

I have not included Volley or Whirlwind attack because those would be highly variable. Note that these abilities are usable 1 / round.
I didn't include them either as you loose 2 attacks for a possibility of more attacks. Not reliable. And I was sticking with melee per your OP.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
That's pretty much why it's never used out of an encounter. It might be an exploration encounter. Social encounters tend to lack that time crunch that an exploration might (typically doesn't) have. Combat is when time matters the most and that's why combat is when we see the ability.
Action surge seems a mechanism for allowing some form of extra effort ... but it also seems pretty big gun unless you also get a big result.
 

Ashrym

Explorer
Action surge seems a mechanism for allowing some form of extra effort ... but it also seems pretty big gun unless you also get a big result.
It's a huge gun in combat. Action surge is one of the best mechanics in the fighter class in combat.

Outside of that it tends to be an option that's largely unimportant. That's not because the ability is lacking but because actions themselves have less import outside of combat encounters.

I've pointed out that it's an extra action and can be used for many things many times, and that's true. When those are important or applicable ends up pretty rare, so if a person wants to develop the out of combat options then proficiency in relevant skills and using the bonus ASI's for relevant feats works better. Option B is multiclassing and option C is playing something else but reskinning the fluff. I've done option C many times. ;-)

Bit off topic though.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
It's a huge gun in combat. Action surge is one of the best mechanics in the fighter class in combat.

Outside of that it tends to be an option that's largely unimportant. That's not because the ability is lacking but because actions themselves have less import outside of combat encounters.

I've pointed out that it's an extra action and can be used for many things many times, and that's true. When those are important or applicable ends up pretty rare, so if a person wants to develop the out of combat options then proficiency in relevant skills and using the bonus ASI's for relevant feats works better. Option B is multiclassing and option C is playing something else but reskinning the fluff. I've done option C many times. ;-)

Bit off topic though.
Sure massively but how about giving them an auto-roll 20 (which is basically auto success could be tempting) the reason I think its important - is because I know a number of game groups where fights per day is approximately averaging .16 ... ie often not more than once a week.

Very off topic for this thread.
 

Esker

Exploree
Hey @dave2008, I played around a bit with your spreadsheet; did a little bit of refactoring, and tried to incorporate some more details (e.g. colossus slayer damage once per turn, taking into account the chance of at least one hit, and the chance that the attack you use it on is a crit, as well as an attempt to account for distracting strike and whirlwind strike). Here's my take

Edit: Fixed the link
 

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