D&D 5E PrCs: Anathema, or just lack of interest? (Pick two!)

Would you play or allow PrCs in 5e?


  • Poll closed .

Hussar

Legend
Honestly, I don't see the problem. Most PrC's were fine. The problem came in when WotC felt that they had to pad every single book (and everyone else did too) with more and more of them. I think by the tail end of 3e, there were what, 1700 PrC's in print. :wow:

That's a bit extreme. :p

OTOH, PrC's that are directly tied to settings make a lot of sense. Dragonlance and their Knights of Solamnia, for example, work best as a PrC.

"Generic" prestige classes are probably best handled by the subclass system. There's no reason that a loremaster needs a PrC, IMO. Or a Cavalier. Or any of the bajillion other PrC's that were largely forgettable. But, the setting specific ones can really add a lot to a given setting.
 

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Yaarel

He Mage
Then no, I'm not talking about "miniclasses" in this sense. I am explicitly talking about things with reasonable, appropriate requirements that develop your skills in a different direction than they would be if you stuck with your normal class.

So, the Vampire PrC might require a minimum Charisma (vampire magic is akin to sorcerer's, being ah..."in the blood" so to speak!), having been bitten by a vampire and not been treated, and undergoing a ritual to focus and empower the transformation.

You can play a Wizard with Int 9, a Sorcerer with Cha 9.

There is no reason why a Vampire would need to be more than Cha 9.

Of course, multiclassing into a Vampire class might require Cha 13. Just like multiclassing into a Wizard class requires Int 13.

In other words. Normal multiclassing works normally.
 

Then, no. It's a terrible idea.

Firstly, 3rd edition got into a mess over balancing "role playing" prerequisites (e.g. to be a guild thief you had do join a thieves guild) against "hard" prerequisites.

Secondly, as soon as you add "hard" prerequisites, you narrow down the possible build. Your "vampire" charisma requirement for example. Why can't I create a non-charismatic vampire? You might as well just make it a sorcerer subclass! Your werewolf PrC needing strength - just make it a barbarian subclass (or blood hunter lycan which already exists).
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
OTOH, PrC's that are directly tied to settings make a lot of sense. Dragonlance and their Knights of Solamnia, for example, work best as a PrC.

"Generic" prestige classes are probably best handled by the subclass system. There's no reason that a loremaster needs a PrC, IMO. Or a Cavalier. Or any of the bajillion other PrC's that were largely forgettable. But, the setting specific ones can really add a lot to a given setting.
The specific PrC that got me thinking about all this was the silver pyromancer, from Eberron. They had to be arcane--not divine--casters, and got certain neat benefits as a result of their ability to meld religious practice into their arcane magic. I don't think such a class absolutely must be tied to the Church of the Silver Flame only, in that I think it can be adapted to other appropriate things (a build guide that used it suggested an order of dragon-blooded sorcerers dedicated to Bahamut, using platinum fire to burn the minions of Tiamat, for example). The player-made feats and subclass (wizard-only; sucks to be you if you wanted to be a silver pyromancer as a sorcerer!) were extremely underwhelming, so it made me wonder.

You can play a Wizard with Int 9, a Sorcerer with Cha 9.

There is no reason why a Vampire would need to be more than Cha 9.

Of course, multiclassing into a Vampire class might require Cha 13.
So...why is the multiclass requirement okay, but a prestige class--which, under this framework, literally is just a short-run class with requirements--can't have such a thing? I included such things literally BECAUSE 5e multiclassing includes attribute requirements, thus it would make sense that 5e PrCs would too. They're multiclassing, just with potentially slightly more required than just ability scores. (The rune scribe example did this, incidentally; it required 13 Dexterity and Intelligence, as well as 5th level.)

Then, no. It's a terrible idea.

Firstly, 3rd edition got into a mess over balancing "role playing" prerequisites (e.g. to be a guild thief you had do join a thieves guild) against "hard" prerequisites.
Certainly, I've already said repeatedly that poor handling of prerequisites is a problem. Prerequisites should never be used as a balancing mechanism--just as they aren't for multiclassing. They're there to communicate something about the class, or to lay a reasonable expected minimum. Like how the UA rune scribe requires that you be 5th level or higher. It also requires you to complete a special task, to justify why your character would even be able to learn rune magic in the first place, but that requirement has nothing to do with "lock these powerful features behind onerous burdens." Roleplay prerequisites for roleplay effects (making sure your character has a reason to be doing what they're doing).

As I've been so frequently told about all the other ways 5e preserved 3e-isms: Just because it was done badly before doesn't mean it's inherently bad. It means we have to learn from the mistakes. "Don't use roleplay requirements to balance powerful advantages" is a pretty clear lesson to learn.

Secondly, as soon as you add "hard" prerequisites, you narrow down the possible build. Your "vampire" charisma requirement for example. Why can't I create a non-charismatic vampire? You might as well just make it a sorcerer subclass! Your werewolf PrC needing strength - just make it a barbarian subclass (or blood hunter lycan which already exists).
So only Sorcerers can become vampires, and it always happens at exactly the same point in their lives? Only Barbarians can become werewolves, and it always happens exactly as they hit level 3? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. If anything, your way is artificially narrowing things down--now only specific classes get to be vampires at all!

I absolutely think that the only people who could tap into their vampire curse, to draw out the power in it and really use it to the fullest, would need a little Charisma--particularly if they're intending to do so quickly, rather than taking the years and years it normally takes to become a powerful vampire. I absolutely think that a character infected with lycanthropy wouldn't be able to really make use of the transformation, mechanically, unless their physical body is strong enough to support it...if they don't want to simply wait for the curse to change their "normal" form enough. Again, I'm not inventing anything weird here. This is 5e multiclassing. Becoming a multiclass Paladin requires 13 Str and Cha, even though it's perfectly feasible to play a Paladin with 8 Str who uses finesse weapons (I'd even call it thematic for Ancients). Why is it so weird that PrC rules should do the same thing for the same reasons (ones that are explicitly spelled out in the PHB, even)?
 

Certainly, I've already said repeatedly that poor handling of prerequisites is a problem.
And you are repeatedly wrong. The EXISTANCE of prerequisites is the problem. There is no way to "handle" prerequisites that doesn't limit options.


So only Sorcerers can become vampires, and it always happens at exactly the same point in their lives?

Well, under current rules, anyone can become a vampire. You are the one who wants to impose a "only charismatic people can become vampires" rule.

But under current rules you can multiclass into sorcerer. You could create a "vampire blood" sorcerer subclass and it would give you what you want without needing any new rules.

Only Barbarians can become werewolves, and it always happens exactly as they hit level 3? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Again, you can multiclass into barbarian. We can assume that the level in which they choose their subclass is the level at which they start to gain control over their transformation.

But under current rules, ANYONE can become a werewolf. You are the one who wants to turn it into a class.
 
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Yaarel

He Mage
So...why is the multiclass requirement okay, but a prestige class--which, under this framework, literally is just a short-run class with requirements--can't have such a thing? I included such things literally BECAUSE 5e multiclassing includes attribute requirements, thus it would make sense that 5e PrCs would too. They're multiclassing, just with potentially slightly more required than just ability scores. (The rune scribe example did this, incidentally; it required 13 Dexterity and Intelligence, as well as 5th level.)

It is possible we are in agreement.

I am saying, the miniclass is exactly like a normal class (except for the number of levels).

Just like a normal class has a key ability, the miniclass normally would too.



What a miniclass class must avoid is weird requirements (like proficiency in a specific skill, or so on).

Keep the miniclass a normal class, and balance it like a normal class, and it works fine.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
For me, the thing that would make a Prestige Class worthwhile is if it were truly Prestigious. Like, the Archmage example is good, because you can't just be an Archmage at 1st level. Similarly, things like High Priest, Guildmaster, Grand Champion, and cough Warlord seem like they should be reserved for higher levels.

However, for all of these, the question is: Do you need the full mechanical weight of a class or do existing mechanics cover it? Like, what's the difference between an Archmage and a high-level wizard? Or between a Warlord and a high-level fighter? Could you become a Guildmaster just by, you know, being the master of a guild, in-game? etc.

They certainly would need to be prestige classes. There's two word in prestige class, and both are important :)

A prestige class is meant to be a class because there is a progression inside it. This is where it is fundamentally different than a feat, although there used to be feat chains that also were a good idea (and just as well as PrCl, they got a bad implementation).

But then it is meant to be prestige exactly because it's something that should come up only later in the game, but even more importantly because it should not be available to everyone. The 3e prestige classes could generally be taken at 5th level or later, and even that is a bit too low to call "prestige", but we have to understand that this was probably chosen because (a) players were not always supposed to plan ahead and gather requirements to qualify as soon as possible, and (b) most games don't reach 10th level and making prestige classes too high in level means few players will ever get them.

As I said, personally I am pretty confident that people hate 3e PrCls because both the designers and the players largely abused them, not because the concept or mechanic is bad.

The players abused prestige classes by stacking lots of them, cherrypicking a few levels from each because some prestige classes were front-loaded, and regularly disregarded the narrative nature of them: this is pretty much because of the widespread competitive culture of 3e games and the "character builds" sub-hobby, but hopefully both those are not nearly as strong in 5e as they were in 3e. Despite sometimes having costly requirements, 3e PrCl did not feel prestigious because most DMs were making them available to everyone, and players demanded that if they had spent money on a book then they must be given the right to use whatever was in it.

Designers also abused the idea because gamers were asking for more and more PrCls at each new book, so obviously it became a milk cow... which meant that designers were constantly trying to come up with new, extremely narrow character ideas, and make a PrCl out of each... but then, because class design is hard work, they often ended up with 10 levels which really contained 2-3 new abilities at most (and often re-hashed mechanics, slightly modified). There were even examples of truly bad PrCls that had literally zero unique features, and were only "+1 spellcasting level" and a few bonus feats. Finally, they even exploited the PrCls mechanics for "fixing" what was regarded as a bug in the core rule i.e. multiclassing spellcasters yielding insufficient spells abilities.

All this crap doesn't have to happen in 5e.

I would argue that neither "Archmage" or "Guildmaster" are prestigious and specific enough to be prestige classes however. They are too generic to be forced into a single class.

Instead, it might be better to consider the prestige class approach to represent a character concept that has the following properties:

  • it represents very restricted knowledge: it's either only available to members of a closed group, or to a "chosen" of a certain kind
  • it's absolutely unique in terms of abilities acquired (I would avoid ANY non-unique features in a prestige class progression)
  • those abilities should be capable of standing on their own, not "boosts" base class abilities, so that the prestige class is potentially a good thing for every character, but then the prestige class works just like multiclassing and therefore a PC can always choose to level up in the original class
  • it's a fairly long path, no less than 5 levels worth of abilities but the longer the better, so there is no way to fit this into feats or feat chains (I don't think it's a good idea to have feat chains longer than 3 feats, given the 5e feats acquisition rate)
  • it's a path that can be taken potentially at any time during a PC's life (not at a specific time like subclasses or backgrounds), because you should not be able to plan it*
  • better to have narrative requirements only for the previous reasons: to be accepted into the closed group you need to prove yourself through actions, not to produce a CV of feats and skills...

*of course the player and DM can plan it, but the PC should not be able to think of it like planned education, because in order to be really prestige it has be something by invitation-only, and possibly even secret, so a PC wouldn't even know that the option exists until invited or chosen

For example, the original Shadowdancer prestige class could be a good candidate, because the character concept is "all about shadows", but doesn't necessarily gravitate towards fighting, exploring or spellcasting. It can include abilities of stealth, magical movement or teleportation through shadowy areas, creating illusions with shadows, summoning shadow companions for help or even combat aid... all of which can be useful to everyone, in combat or other pillars. And all of which can have a progression, so it makes sense to spread them into levels.

I think a good test for a character concept could be: if the whole party would gain this prestige class, would it be good for everyone? (note that this doesn't mean everyone should stop levelling up in their base class).
 

Yaarel

He Mage
Instead of the term ‘prestige’, it might be more useful to link it by tier.

• Levels 1-4: Basic class.
• Levels 5-8: Expert class.
• Levels 9-12: Master class.
• Levels 13-16: Leader class.
• Levels 17-20: Legend class.

(Levels 21+: Epic class).

Hypothetically, for the sake of an example. A Vampire miniclass might only have levels for the Expert tier and the Master tier. Any basic vampires might be ineffectual drones, perhaps even perpetually Charmed, while only higher level vampires become autonomous and powerful. The expert miniclass would supply the more potent Vampire abilities, while the master miniclass would supply the high-level Dracula-esque abilities.

The Shadowdancer might be a basic miniclass, with the essentials of shadow magic that any character can take at low levels.


Note, the master tier is when the character becomes the head of some institution: a guild, wizard tower, military fortress, or so on. The leader tier is when they become movers-and-shakers within national politics. The legend tier is when they impact the affairs of the world or plane.

It makes sense if certain miniclasses are pertinent to these specific magnitudes of political influence.
 
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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
My next campaign is going to be a modified 5e, based on prestige classes unlocked as play rewards, so I certainly think the idea is workable. Honestly, I think using 3e-5e style multiclassing is a little silly if the only class options available run 1-20.
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
I'd call them Prestige Themes

Ex:
Prestige Theme: Vampire
Prerequisites: Being afflicted by the curse of vampirism, minimum level 5
1: Drain blood: As a bonus action deal 1d4+level extra piercing damage when attacking with Advantage, recuperate the same HP amount. once per short rest
2: Child of the Night: Regen 1 Hp/round when under 1/2 HP, lose it if in direct sunlight or hit by fire or radiant damage.
3: Forms of the Predator: Take the shape of a Direwolf or Swarm of Bats for 10 minutes, once per short rest.
4: Resilient Obfuscation: Double prof in stealth, can hide in dim light, resistance to all damage but fire and radiant when in complete darkness.
5: Undying Vitality: Requires 4 death save to kill.
 

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