D&D 5E 5e Philosophy of System Mastery

[Tony Vargas]

. Instead of punishing players for not learning the game enough, it rewards players decide to go in depth with the rules, as well as allowing the players to feel awesome when they find something powerful.

6 of 1, half-dozen of the other, whether the imbalance breaks high or low isn't a hugely important difference. Rather, it's the magnitude of that gap between the trap options, whatever the theoretical 'balance' point may nominally be, and the 'game breakers'

My question is, do you agree with this idea of system mastery, as well as allowing the players to break the game in "acceptable" ways? In addition, do you think 5e does this well enough in most cases (reminder that core rules don't have feats or multiclassing) or not, as well as other potential games that might follow this philosophy?

System mastery is unavoidable - whatever the system, if you stick to it in the face of (unironically, even though, yeah, of course it's a game) 'gaming' that system, there will be rewards for system mastery. A robustly balanced game keeps those rewards slim. 5e doesn't particularly do that - like MM said, he's just not worrying about it, no so much dropping the ball as never picking it up in the first place, just, yep, it's a ball, have fun with it, it's not my window you'll be breaking - balance is something the DM can impose on 5e by avoiding optional rules, sticking to the prescribed pacing, and making rulings with relative PC contributions & desired challenges in mind.
But, 5e also doesn't particularly stick to the system when the system's being gamed, either. Rather, it kicks things to the DM with such accustomed frequency that the exercise of & rewards for system mastery are prettymuch at his sufferance. So the player who really wants to excel his peers would likely see more success by 'gaming' the DM than the System.

 

[Shiroiken]

The problem is large disparities in power within the party.

5e is much better at this than 3.x/pathfinder.

This. I've seen optimized characters in the same group as casual characters in both editions. In 3E it was the superpowers plus their lackeys, while in 5E the difference is... minimal. While the optimized character IS overall better, bounded accuracy and the lack of trap options means that casual characters still contribute significantly to the game.

The only time you have a problem is if you have a non-combat situation or if you have direct PC conflict. Since combat is a them vs. us situation, one player being better is seldom considered a problem. If two characters are trying to do the same social or exploration task, it can cause some issues if they can't work together (such as using skills vs. spells), because the optimized character will shine more often. Good groups don't try to overshadow each other, or they try to work together on these types of tasks.

Direct conflict is where system mastery is revealed. In fact, my group is soon going to have a "battle royale" where everyone builds a level 20 character using only official WotC materials. On an ever shifting battleground, only 1 character will survive as the victor, testing the system mastery (and social skills) of the players involved.

 

[dave2008]

Not receiving a reward is a punishment. It has nothing to do with "these days", it has always been the case.

That may be how you look at it, but that is not how I was raised or how I raised my children.

 

[Guest 6801328]

In fact, my group is soon going to have a "battle royale" where everyone builds a level 20 character using only official WotC materials. On an ever shifting battleground, only 1 character will survive as the victor, testing the system mastery (and social skills) of the players involved.

Honed on the battlefields of Diplomacy, no doubt.

Mwuhahahahahahahaha

 

[cmad1977]

Can’t break the game.

 

[Campbell]

I am very much not a fan of character build determining how effective you will be at the table. On the other hand I am very much a fan of the decisions you make at the table including how you use build elements mattering at the table. I think it is important to be able to play a fighter well the same way you can play a wizard well.

I am very much a fan of cultivating an environment based around skilled play of both the game mechanics and the fiction at least for challenge oriented play.

 

[DWChancellor]

I've played enough systems that lean both ways to realize that I much, much prefer 5E's approach.

I burned out hard on Pathfinder when I had one powergaming player when the rest of the (very experienced and capable) players decided to make weird characters to have fun. As a DM I had to spend way too much time balancing encounters to make it fun for everyone.

Unless your whole group wants to push in the same direction, 5E really really helps a DM smooth out difficulty as they intend (easier or harder!) without making any one player feel singled out. As a busy father and DM, I don't have the time or patience to putz around with systems like Pathfinder and the challenges that crop up from them.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Not receiving a reward is a punishment. It has nothing to do with "these days", it has always been the case.

No it hasn’t. It never been the case. If I didn’t get a ribbon because I didn’t place high enough in judging, I’m not being punished for it. When my older brother beat me in a board game, I didn’t get punished because I didn’t get a reward. When my son got a reward for exceeding expectations, that doesn’t mean every other kid who didn’t get a reward got punished. When I got a bonus at work for exceeding my accuracy threshold, it’s not punishing the other people who didn’t make their ICP goals.

Honestly, I have no idea why you’d make such an inaccurate statement. A punishment is a negative thing. A reward is a positive thing. The majority of times neither a good or bad thing happens as a result, but just neutral reactions. And life moves on.

 

[Shiroiken]

Honed on the battlefields of Diplomacy, no doubt.

Mwuhahahahahahahaha

I wasn't part of the last one, but I know one player offered for to heal another if the other didn't throw him off the flying castle. Next round, casts level 1 Healing Word, but then the round after that (once the battleground shifts) drops a level 8 Blight on her...