D&D General Greyhawk setting material

[David Howery]

I still haven't heard a good argument for why Greyhawk needs every PHB race though, beyond "because I don't want to invent a reason of my own," which I find lacking strength.

well, this seems to be a very specific 'DM/Player' thing... as in 'does the DM want to include them, and if not, do the players agree?' A 'generic' setting like GH or FR should be assumed to have all the playable races and classes as part of it; but as always, any particular group can do away with them as desired. Dragonborn in GH isn't all that big a deal... probably not a whole new kingdom smack dab in the Flanaess, but as wanderers who have recently begun appearing in the Flanaess? Sure.

 

[Zardnaar]

Since when are Dragonborn a "Forgotten Realms" race? Heck, people freaked when they added them to FR too.

I guess that's the part that baffles me. So much of Greyhawk is left blank, even today. There's huge areas of the setting that have never been detailed or are only very sketchily detailed. Plunking down a "Dragonborn nation" wouldn't cause the slightest ripple in the setting.

To me, the whole "let's hit the reset thing" just throws the baby out with the bathwater. Maure Castle? Shackled City? The Demonomicon series? Iggwilv? And a host of other stuff that is pretty darn good.

I mean, if you want Baphomet, Paizuzu, or most of the demon lords, they don't appear in D&D until after 1983. I would argue that Cauldron and Sasserine are just as iconically Greyhawk as anything in the Boxed Set. Resetting to 1983 is just the grognard way of forcing everyone else to play the way they want. Why should everyone else be forced to do all the work adding material back in just because you folks happen not to like some of the changes done to the setting?

Most of the latter adventures are timeline neutral or can be easily adapted as they didn't tie it to strongly to Greyhawk Current events. Not you can still run those with a 1983 boxed set or just advance the timeline.

Its a lot harder to remove stuff if they bake it in. If you want to add a Dragonborn empire over the sea no problem, if they bake that empire in and a DM doesn't want it its cause an argument with a player.

I think FR lost its hard core fans years ago. Its been blown up so many times it doesn't really matter anymore, I moved on to Golarion and Midgard myself. The destruction inflicted on GH is less and it did kind of make a com back quality wise with Paizohawk,

 

[Parmandur]

Since when are Dragonborn a "Forgotten Realms" race? Heck, people freaked when they added them to FR too.

I guess that's the part that baffles me. So much of Greyhawk is left blank, even today. There's huge areas of the setting that have never been detailed or are only very sketchily detailed. Plunking down a "Dragonborn nation" wouldn't cause the slightest ripple in the setting.

To me, the whole "let's hit the reset thing" just throws the baby out with the bathwater. Maure Castle? Shackled City? The Demonomicon series? Iggwilv? And a host of other stuff that is pretty darn good.

I mean, if you want Baphomet, Paizuzu, or most of the demon lords, they don't appear in D&D until after 1983. I would argue that Cauldron and Sasserine are just as iconically Greyhawk as anything in the Boxed Set. Resetting to 1983 is just the grognard way of forcing everyone else to play the way they want. Why should everyone else be forced to do all the work adding material back in just because you folks happen not to like some of the changes done to the setting?

That material can fit into a Greyhawk whose geopolitical situation is dialed back to the original status quo. It all happened within a couple decades, anyways, so Cauldron, etc. were technically "there." Again, GoS has The Styes right next to 1E material with the original historical status quo just fine.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

well, this seems to be a very specific 'DM/Player' thing... as in 'does the DM want to include them, and if not, do the players agree?' A 'generic' setting like GH or FR should be assumed to have all the playable races and classes as part of it; but as always, any particular group can do away with them as desired. Dragonborn in GH isn't all that big a deal... probably not a whole new kingdom smack dab in the Flanaess, but as wanderers who have recently begun appearing in the Flanaess? Sure.

Why can't it be the opposite? Instead of it being assumed Greyhawk has all the playable races and the DM/players agree to remove one, why shouldn't it be that Greyhawk has the races it's always had and the DM/players agree to add ones they want?

I seriously haven't heard a good argument beyond "Greyhawk is generic," which I'd argue it isn't, but you'd make it so if you made it comply exactly with the PHB. To make Greyhawk more interesting, it should stick to what makes it unique.

 

[Hussar]

The focus of Greyhawk has always been largely on the Flaeness, so dropping a Dragonborn kingdom there is super disruptive.

Making a kingdom far away like the Empire of Lynn have Dragonborn is fine; there's like a paragraph of lore there.

I still haven't heard a good argument for why Greyhawk needs every PHB race though, beyond "because I don't want to invent a reason of my own," which I find lacking strength.

Well, the best reason is that Dragonborn are one of the more popular PC races (outside of the big three, human, elf dwarf) that players want to play. If you want to sell your setting, cutting out the most popular races without adding other ones (as is done in Ravnica) isn't exactly the best idea.

Good grief, for a fandom that prides itself on creativity, folks are awfully uncreative. Just off the top of my head - Dragonborn Sources:

1. Amedio Jungle - Dragonborn were nearly wiped out by the Olman expansion but managed to survive in pockets here and there.

2. Hool Marsh - Dragonborn are simply misidentified lizard folk.

3. Scarlet Brotherhood breeding program - The SB's were trying to breed an army of super soldiers on one of the southern islands - Flotsam/Jetsam for example - and the population has recently rebelled, throwing off the SB yoke and are now trying to carve a place out for themselves in the setting.

4. The Dim Forest is barely detailed other than being full of monsters. Makes a pretty easy place to add in a Dragonborn homeland. Or, heck, most of the Lost Lands work as well.

That's 4 just off the top of my head that would work perfectly fine. Why do people insist that anything added to the setting needs to completely shake things up? It's easy to add stuff to Greyhawk. That's the appeal of the setting. There are so many blank areas that adding something like a new PC race is ridiculously easy. It's frankly rather baffling that people seem to think it's so complicated or difficult.

 

[David Howery]

Why can't it be the opposite?

shrugs I just generally presume that a generic setting should be all-inclusive. That said, it's about as easy to delete stuff out as it is to add stuff in, so it comes down to 'group decision' again...

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Well, the best reason is that Dragonborn are one of the more popular PC races (outside of the big three, human, elf dwarf) that players want to play. If you want to sell your setting, cutting out the most popular races without adding other ones (as is done in Ravnica) isn't exactly the best idea.

The idea that a book won't sell because it doesn't include Dragonborn is rubbish. Every table has the PHB, if they want it they'll add it. And Greyhawk can add plenty new content is subraces for elves and humans, not that it is even necessary because Xanathar's doesn't include any new races and is one of the best-selling D&D books. Setting material, adventure material, and player options when done well can sell a book.

shrugs I just generally presume that a generic setting should be all-inclusive. That said, it's about as easy to delete stuff out as it is to add stuff in, so it comes down to 'group decision' again...

I'll reiterate that I believe Greyhawk is only made truly generic when it has the same racial and class outlook as Forgotten Realms, so I think you're creating a bit of a feedback-loop there.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ravnica sold alright on Amazon?

That misses half the phb races.

 

[David Howery]

I'll reiterate that I believe Greyhawk is only made truly generic when it has the same racial and class outlook as Forgotten Realms, so I think you're creating a bit of a feedback-loop there.

GH and FR are both generic, in that they aren't loaded with a pile of unique conditions, like Dark Sun or Ravenloft, and are generally all-inclusive. Sure, they each have some unique stuff, but you can set most any generic adventure there.
But... 'including dragonborn' seems to be a set in stone dealbreaker for you, so there doesn't seem to be much point in arguing about it. I find it all pretty shruggable myself, and I'm a long time GH fan...

 

[Hussar]

Umm, you realize when Greyhawk came out, it DID include every single option in the game right? Plus more actually considering that there are a bajillion elf variants.

The notion that what makes Greyhawk Greyhawk is somehow exclusion is pretty bizarre.