What is the essence of D&D

[Maxperson]

When most people play the game they seem to rely on resources the game provides like all those not designed for any party random encounter tables and no real guidelines about what might be level appropriate. The fact was the cleric having super huge impact on play was exactly the primacy of magic FULL stop.

I never felt compelled to have a cleric, or a wizard, or any other particular class in the party. I still had tons of fun playing. I also loved to play fighters and rogues. I never felt outclassed or invalidated by wizards or clerics. They were tons of fun to play with or without spellcasters around.

Full stop.

 

[Garthanos]

My own experience tells me the way to really do this is to define a clear conceptual space for each caster so they are as specialized as anyone else, make spells less certain, and define a clear conceptual space for martial skill and be fine with letting at will things be awesome.

Tony likes to point out something to the effect that you could give the fighter every single martial archetypes non-combat arena abilities allow free swapping and it would still not compete with the versatility of an old school mage. Because I think of there ability to be "master class" at that versatility

 

[Arnwolf666]

One of the problems in creating a magic system is that it has to blow your mind. It has to feel magical and special. It has to give the element of wow and look what I found. Look what I can do with this.

 

[Garthanos]

I never felt outclassed or invalidated by wizards or clerics.

That high level thief had every ability undermined... that i could tell back in 1e and the level 9 fighter felt like a henchman to the level 10 or 11 mage. Anecdotes notwithstanding (you get how they arent really important?) Your comments themselves have demonstrated how dramatically different and how more difficult the game had to be played without the caster it reminds me of the pdf Tony quoted for 5e how things would be 10x harder without the casters.

 

[Arnwolf666]

I never felt compelled to have a cleric, or a wizard, or any other particular class in the party. I still had tons of fun playing. I also loved to play fighters and rogues. I never felt outclassed or invalidated by wizards or clerics. They were tons of fun to play with or without spellcasters around.

Full stop.

In pre 3.x days it was never the fighter I pitied. It was the thief. Although I never had problems with people not wanting to play any of these classes it was the thief that I saw having trouble keeping up at higher levels. And it’s amazing that I don’t hear near as much crying from their group. Thief was playing on hard mode. I respected them.

 

[Garthanos]

One of the problems in creating a magic system is that it has to blow your mind.

It has to be compared to modern technology in many ways... and we get more awesome as we go along.

 

[Arnwolf666]

It has to be compared to modern technology in many ways... and we get more awesome as we go along.

I think it’s very person specific and generational to an extent I think. I dont like magic to feel like comic books with at will effects. I like a little casting time and the feel that each spell is specifically crafted and built from esoteric components and secrets and magic words, sigils, and magic diagrams, and checking the constellations to see if the time is right and such things.

 

[Hussar]

I was kind of startled that the example of this super-jump was used as an example. So 4e reduced this imaginary "Primacy of Magic" by...giving rogues magical powers? WTF?

Are you really surprised? I mean, you've been in those umpteen skills threads. Under 5e rules there is zero chance of a rogue doing this. None. Flat out can't. And, we have @Zardnaar talking about how it isn't D&D to allow it.

Seems to me to fit perfectly with what @lowkey13 was claiming that no one was claiming.

 

[Garthanos]

and checking the constellations to see if the time is right and such things.

That mucks with D&D assumptions generally speaking (Find familiar? is the only one off the top of my head was anything like that )

 

[Arnwolf666]

That mucks with D&D assumptions generally speaking (Find familiar? is the only one off the top of my head was anything like that )

Never played much pre 3.x or COC?