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What is the essence of D&D

  • Thread starter Thread starter lowkey13
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OK, Wizard 1 and 2 suggest the first mooks should crank while wizard 3 drops a web to keep more undesirables out. Or 2 enlarges after laying down web and grease. Or... I can go on.

More concentration spells, depends on those spells being selected for the day, and depends on those slots still being available (FWIW this was the final escape from the dungeon). And even if all those conditions are met and the targets succeed at their saving throws...now those slots are gone.

:-/
 

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More concentration spells, depends on those spells being selected for the day, and depends on those slots still being available (FWIW this was the final escape from the dungeon). And even if all those conditions are met and the targets succeed at their saving throws...now those slots are gone.

:-/

Sure! The slots are gone! The days' work gets shorter and more dangerous! But it gets done if the group proceeds with planning and care. The non-caster party situations may not even be discovered and if discovered impossible to complete regardless of planning and care. In other words, non-casters offer utility. Casters offer opportunity.

And this is in 5e which is far more careful to try and balance caster's long term capability than 3.X does. The quote I responded to said any edition.
 

We are talking about different things here. Fourth edition is more interested in how a Fighter is different from a Barbarian or Ranger than other editions. Same goes for how different a Wizard is from a Bard, Sorcerer, Cleric, or Avenger.

Almost every other edition is more concerned with how different a spell caster is from a martial PC while not really having too much differentiation within the category.

Ideally I think we should care about both in roughly equal measure.
 

On a different note:

Mundane characters can absolutely explore a wreck without magic. Diving bells exist.

But DnD worlds are magical. The desire to carefully avoid ever having it be true that the best solution to a problem is magical is like making a science fiction game where it's never the case that technology is the best solution to a problem. It's not a reasonable requirement.

If you want less magical dnd, there are 3rd party options, like Adventures in Middle-Earth. That product is well balanced within itself, and magic users are by far the minority.

But for me, even if I'm playing a swashbuckler rogue with no magic of their own, I'm playing in a magical world where sometimes the diving bell is replaced with a ring of water breathing that you can buy from the shipwright that attaches to the mast of your ship, and allows you to breath water and ignore the pressure of the deep for a certain amount of time, x/day.

Because the literal physical world itself is magical.

I keep running into this in my own system as well, where one of my friends and fellow designers will point out that there's nothing stopping every character from gaining magic of some kind, and I'm just like..."Okay? So what? Why wouldn't every Wise (a term which here means, someone who knows about the supernatural) person find or learn magic of some kind? If someone wants to play the fantasy version of a Luddite, they can, but the game doesn't need to encourage it."
 

All I can say is that I disagree.
Fair 'nuff.

powers were different
fact
but others ... meh. Didn't feel distinct to me.
Opinion

In other words stop telling everybody what their opinion is.
Not telling you what your opinion is, just what the facts were.

Technically - and this is really just a technicality - every 4e class power was even unique - because the name of the class was part of the power, yes, really, thus 'technicality.'
Eventually a few shared the same name (MP1, the Rogue & Warlord each got an exploit called Anticipate Attack - but they were completely different), some names got used for both a power and a feat, or both a feat and an item... danger of feat proliferation, I guess.
As of Essentials, that changed slightly as Healing Word was re-cycled whole cloth to the Sentinel Druid, /including keeping the Cleric class name as part of the power/ - may have happened with other powers, too, I'm honestly not sure.
Thing is, that's nothing new to D&D. Spellcasters have always shared some of their spells. In 1e, a shared spell was noted as such, "except as noted above and described below, this spell is the same as the n level other caster spell of the same name," was not unfamiliar. In 3e, myriad spells had several classes listed with them maybe even a different levels or components for some of those classes. In 5e, each caster's list contains more shared spells than spells unique to it (the high point, the wizard, has 33 spells it doesn't share, the low point, the sorcerer, /none/.) Nor was it only spells. 1e Thieves shared some of their 'Special' Abilities with Monks and Assassins, 2e, with Bards, IIRC, 3e, in addition to most of them becoming just skills, with Barbarian (Uncanny Dodge), 5e, with Bard (Expertise). 4e went back to the 1e format of listing spells (and prayers & extended it to exploits) by class, then level, then alphabetically, instead of having one big list like in 3e, and took it a step further by putting each list right after its class description - no (technically exact) duplications, no references to another list.

Personally, I had always preferred the 1e organization, you could read the class, read the spells for the first few levels, and have an idea what it could do. I suppose it /could/ have taken mechanically-identical powers, and done the 1e thing, there'd have been a few Rogue powers that gave an Attack line of DEX vs AC, and then substituted "except as noted above, this exploit is identical to the level n fighter exploit of the same name," but it'd've saved almost no space, I guess, so they didn't do it - instead, they got a tad disingenuous (IMHO) and gave them different /names/, as well, and figured no one would notice (ha!). Again, personally, I think consolidating similar powers by source has a certain aesthetic appeal, though, even if it'd mean that each class would have some class powers, then also draw from a separate list of powers by source, which might, in turn, have special lines for each class.... OK, maybe not that appealing. :🤷: … no I still like the idea, just needs the right organization/implementation... (heh, subjective preferences are like that).
 
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Add Concentration to the list of Fourth Edition inspired mechanics that I hate in Fifth Edition. Just like the Healing Surge to Hit Dice transition they took something with compelling gameplay and stripped out the things that made them interesting in play. The game would be more interesting without both.
 

On a different note:
Mundane characters can absolutely explore a wreck without magic. Diving bells exist.
Not to get too scientific, but until decompression chambers, diving bells could be death traps.

OTOH, there's a myth that Alexander the Great, I think it was, had himself lowered into the sea in a glass box and observed an aquatic kingdom, complete with aquatic people picking fruit of aquatic trees. So, yeah, fantasy world, who knows.

Maybe you can just hold your breath /a really long time/. Beowulf sure did.

But DnD worlds are magical. The desire to carefully avoid ever having it be true that the best solution to a problem is magical is like making a science fiction game where it's never the case that technology is the best solution to a problem.
It's not a reasonable requirement.
I kinda gotta agree.
How' bout avoiding magic /always/ being the best solution? Maybe avoiding it being the /only/ solution? Or even, however occasionally, having it not offer a solution, at all?
That unreasonable?
 

Add Concentration to the list of Fourth Edition inspired mechanics that I hate in Fifth Edition. Just like the Healing Surge to Hit Dice transition they took something with compelling gameplay and stripped out the things that made them interesting in play. The game would be more interesting without both.

Interesting. I find Concentration to be one of the best 5e mechanics.

It is a massive balancing factor to spellcasters that makes shenanigans easily possible in prior editions not work in 5e - while still retaining the spellcaster feel so many people seem to like.
 

Add Concentration to the list of Fourth Edition inspired mechanics that I hate in Fifth Edition. Just like the Healing Surge to Hit Dice transition they took something with compelling gameplay and stripped out the things that made them interesting in play. The game would be more interesting without both.
I'd judge concentration syncretic: it's Concentration (just a CON save instead of a skill) from 3e, Sustain from 4e, and, well, Concentration from 1e. And, it applies less often than any of those mechanics did.
 

We are talking about different things here. Fourth edition is more interested in how a Fighter is different from a Barbarian or Ranger than other editions. Same goes for how different a Wizard is from a Bard, Sorcerer, Cleric, or Avenger.

Almost every other edition is more concerned with how different a spell caster is from a martial PC while not really having too much differentiation within the category.

Ideally I think we should care about both in roughly equal measure.

I agree, though I'd also say that giving fighters distinct mechanical abilities with limited resource based usage doesn't actually make them similar to wizards, it just looks like it does. In the end, much like with balance, appearance is often more impactful than reality.

But no fighter power ever summoned anything, created a wall of elemental damage, made them fly, etc.

If I had a time machine and wanted to waste it on betting on things that don't matter, I'd bet my entire savings account that if you went back and made the lead up to 4e friendlier to people who loved 3.5 (ie, no making fun of it in official announcements and such), and presented powers in a way that looked more like abilities in Star Wars Saga Edition (like 5e has done), decreased the PHB number of powers in favor of including at least 1 of the PHB2 classes, released the rest of the PHB2 classes within the first year (and the gnome, for crying out loud), and tweaked some other presentation problems here and there, the edition war simply would not have happened. Full stop.

we'd still have a 5e right now, because they still hadn't learned the lessons of rolling out too much content too fast to keep up with, using extensive public engagement as a tool for creating the game, etc, but at least the 4e run would have been much friendlier.
 

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