What is the essence of D&D

[Hussar]

Forget about rogues, a wizard using the jump spell can't cover 60 feet. These hyperbolic complaints aren't exactly dissuading me of my opinion re: whining. And I know I'm not going to have a constructive conversation about a proper balance point between wizards and rogues with someone who is clearly only interested in airing out years-old grievances. The best I can do is call out the attitude and hope that eventually you'll realize bitterness isn't a good look.

I get really, really tired of having to justify this sort of stuff over and over again. It really, really begins to annoy me.

Jump allows you to jump TRIPLE your normal distance. Granted, you'd need a STR of 20 to make 60 feet, but, 45 feet is easily doable.

So, ok, you are technically correct, and that's the best kind of correct to be.

Howzabout you actually answer the question - what would the DC be for a rogue to jump triple his normal jumping distance?

Or, in 2e or 1e, how would I go about adjudicating that?

Or are we going to continue pissing about with minutia? Because, hey, that's always so much fun.

 

[Nagol]

Forget about rogues, a wizard using the jump spell can't cover 60 feet. These hyperbolic complaints aren't exactly dissuading me of my opinion re: whining. And I know I'm not going to have a constructive conversation about a proper balance point between wizards and rogues with someone who is clearly only interested in airing out years-old grievances. The best I can do is call out the attitude and hope that eventually you'll realize bitterness isn't a good look.

You can jump 60' with the Jump spell if you have Str 20.

 

[Maxperson]

Nope, they can't. The DM will either set the DC so high that the character fails, or will simply rule, "Nope, you can't do that". So, our Thief will never do fantastic grade jumps. Not without magical assistance. Doesn't matter what level the thief is. If the thief attempts something that is "not realistic" the DM will veto it.

So, no, the Thief can't do things all day. They can't do it at all. The only edition that allowed them to do it at all got booted out of the D&D tent.

You say that as if it's an absolute, but we've both read DMs here say that they enjoy running fantastic games like that. Others like me enjoy more realism. To lump us all together like that not only makes no sense, it's wrong.

 

[Maxperson]

Oh please. Don't be obtuse. Heck, we had people IN THIS THREAD saying that a rogue jumping 60 feet would be impossible in their game without magic. Too wuxia. Doesn't fit with genre. So, exactly how else am I supposed to interpret that?

Yep, and you know very well that over the years we've seen just as many other DMs say that they love running wuxia games.

You can call it a whine all you like, it's closer to a real world observation based on years of experience.

So this is a case of selective memory so you can be right? Because I know you've been in threads and experienced DMs saying the opposite of what you are claiming.

 

[Maxperson]

I get really, really tired of having to justify this sort of stuff over and over again. It really, really begins to annoy me.

Jump allows you to jump TRIPLE your normal distance. Granted, you'd need a STR of 20 to make 60 feet, but, 45 feet is easily doable.

So, ok, you are technically correct, and that's the best kind of correct to be.

Actually, you were technically correct in that a wizard with a 20 strength can in fact jump 60 feet with the spell. It will just pretty much never happen in game play. So you are the one who was technically correct, and that's the best kind of... Oh, you were being sarcastic and you were not being the best kind of correct.

 

[Nagol]

Actually, you were technically correct in that a wizard with a 20 strength can in fact jump 60 feet with the spell. It will just pretty much never happen in game play. So you are the one who was technically correct, and that's the best kind of... Oh, you were being sarcastic and you were not being the best kind of correct.

Jump is a touch spell. Having someone in the party jump 60' is certainly quite within the realm of possibility.

I've also seen Wizards with 20 Str.

 

[Maxperson]

Jump is a touch spell. Having someone in the party jump 60' is certainly quite within the realm of possibility.

I've also seen Wizards with 20 Str.

His claim was wizard, though, not "someone." If we're talking "someone," then a 20th level barbarian with a 24 strength can go 72 feet.

I've personally never seen a wizard PC with a 20 strength and I've been playing regularly since 1983. And in a wide variety of settings with a large variety of people. I'm sure it happens, but it can't be common enough to leave the range of "technically correct."

 

[Guest 6801328]

So is the complaint that allowing characters to jump superhero distances is gated behind the DM's adjudication, rather than behind a rule that the player can invoke? Because either way if that's the kind of game you want the rules allow it.

So maybe the Essence of D&D is less about the mechanism (magic, supernatural, heroic, etc.) that explains the fiction, and more about who determines outcomes, the DM or the rules. When you start codifying outcomes (also called "player empowerment", maybe?) it ends up looking like the elevation of the mundane compared to the magical. And what looks to some like "Primacy of Magic" is a side-effect, or a symptom, not the underlying principle.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Maxperson]

To me, the essence of D&D is the following:

1. You the player get to explore a fantastic world filled with dungeons, ruins, monsters and magic. Your character is an avatar/playing piece that allows you to insert yourself into this world.
2. Your character has abilities that help define its role and how you contribute in the game. Classes provide strong archetypes for what you do in the world. The character class becomes a lens through which you see and interact with the fantastic world. Playing different character classes changes the lens and allows you to experience the game in myriad different ways.
3. The game is a cooperative event where you get to share an experience with other people and contribute to the success of the group.
4. The player at the table holds the power in a game, not the character. Character capability and player capability are two completely unrelated concepts. The character is just a playing piece for the player to exert their agency on the game.

If you asked me to describe a rules element that dictates the essence of D&D, I'd have to decline. Its not about the rules, its about the approach and the experience at the table as you play it.

I've played and run pretty much every edition of D&D ever released. I've enjoyed playing them all. I have my preferences and I try really hard not to talk in absolutes (I don't always succeed at this).

It is kind of frustrating to hear terms like "not D&D" or "its just a video game" or "only played because of nostalgia" or "it's just old and busted rules" for different versions of the game. I honestly don't care who plays what edition. I like the editions I like and I'm glad others like the editions they like.

I really don't think the implementation really matters with regard to the essence of the game.

So Legend of the 5 Rings is a game where...

1. You the player get to explore a fantastic world filled with dungeons, ruins, monsters and magic. Your character is an avatar/playing piece that allows you to insert yourself into this world.
2. Your character has abilities that help define its role and how you contribute in the game. Classes provide strong archetypes for what you do in the world. The character class becomes a lens through which you see and interact with the fantastic world. Playing different character classes changes the lens and allows you to experience the game in myriad different ways.
3. The game is a cooperative event where you get to share an experience with other people and contribute to the success of the group.
4. The player at the table holds the power in a game, not the character. Character capability and player capability are two completely unrelated concepts. The character is just a playing piece for the player to exert their agency on the game.

According to your post, Legend of the 5 Rings is D&D. Is Legend of the 5 Rings D&D?