D&D 5E Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?

[Yardiff]

Doing something (or not doing something) that you know will end in your death is suicide. Provoking a fight with an adult dragon is no different than jumping in front of a moving truck.



The OP stated that the player believed there were no other options. He gave his best shot at saving the NPC and failed. Given the circumstances it was a logical conclusion. That's all that matters.

Nobody can save everyone. Being in a situation where you can't save someone may lead to survivor's guilt. As it says in the PHB, nobody is perfect and the paladin may need to seek absolution from another cleric or paladin.

We don't know what the 'conversation' was and I believe the player didn't give it his best shot.

Edit: But its possible the player had believed he had, maybe.

 

[Fanaelialae]

This makes no sense to me. The dragon didn't turn up of its own accord - you (as GM) wrote it into the story! If that's acceptable, then why not the "deus ex machina bailout"? Or converesely, if you don't like the latter then why did you write in the former? To hose the paladin's player? Some other reason?

In the OP's scenario the PC talked to the dragon, and rolled well. Why did the GM apparently disregard that outcome and nevetheless have the dragon push the point? Is that some sort of anti-deus ex machina?

I don't generally do deus ex machina bailouts because I feel that doing so undermines player agency. I've played under GMs who used bailouts with regularity, and that's how it made me feel. So I don't do it when I GM.

There is one exception, which is if I screwed up. If I made a mistake that would cause permanent issues, I won't hesitate to fix the issue with a little DM magic. That's only fair, IMO.

Personally, given that the player rolled well, I wouldn't have given him the response that the OP did. Heck, given that his argument was that he was on his way to destroy an enemy of the dragon, he probably wouldn't have even had to roll at all in my game, unless maybe the dragon had reason to believe it could blow back on him.

I did actually have a very dangerous dragon in my campaign a while back. I had foreshadowed his existence multiple times in the campaign. He was the oldest class of red, and one of the oldest and most dangerous creatures in the area. The characters were seeking an artifact that a divination spell had indirectly revealed to be in his hoard. I also offered an alternative quest to steal an item from some Giants, which wasn't as powerful as the artifact, but could still get the job done. They decided to go for the dragon.

Wisely, however, they chose to negotiate. They were quite strong as a group, so I have little doubt that they could have slain him, but it would have almost certainly resulted in casualties, which they sought to avoid.

The dragon was old and nearing the end of his years. He had amassed all the treasure that a dragon could dream of, and more. The only thing he truly lacked was companionship. So he offered them a choice. They could take the artifact if they left one of their own with him. After some discussion and negotiation, one of the NPCs agreed to stay, provided he continued to collect his share of treasure.

It was certainly not the same. There was no paladin in the party, although there was a cleric. But it's the closest scenario I could recollect from one of my own games.

 

[Oofta]

We don't know what the 'conversation' was and I believe the player didn't give it his best shot.

Edit: But its possible the player had believed he had, maybe.

The OP posted a while back and stated that the player believed they had given it their best shot. Under the circumstances it's likely I would have believed the same.

 

[iserith]

This is what I understand about the scenerio from the posts of the game master.
The paladin was confronted by the dragon. They had a 'conversation' in which the paladin rolled a high persuasion check. From what I get from the OP posts this roll was for the paladins life but when the GM, in the heat of role play wanted to continue the scene having the dragon ask for the NPC the player felt that he was being put into a no win situation because he felt that he had already won with the high persuasion roll.
The GM had thought that the player would continue the role play.
Why didnt the player want to continue with role playing the scene to see where it would go? Do we know? No we dont.
At least this is my take on what had happened.

Adjudication imperfect. Stakes unclear. Undesirable result ensued. DM admitted error. Mystery solved in my view.

Also, the sidebar on "Breaking Your Oath" in the PHB lays out how this goes and it's really just not a big deal. Paladin does a little carb fast for a day, says some prayers, gets absolved, carries on.

 

[Yardiff]

The OP posted a while back and stated that the player believed they had given it their best shot. Under the circumstances it's likely I would have believed the same.

I don't think so but I'm unwilling to read though all the posts again. I think other posters believe the player had given it his best shot but don't remember if the OPer had posted it. Course my memory isn't all it use to be.

 

[Umbran]

I don't think you have much of a take on LG morality. Even in 5e.

And, you felt that was constructive to say... why, exactly?

Or, if you didn't feel it was constructive to say... why did you say it? What purpose does this comment serve?

 

[Wiseblood]

Fwiw the paladin succeeded at negotiating for one roll. I would have kept going. I could make it worse but I could make it better.

If the paladin had encountered a weaker threat would he have attacked? Would he stop attacking if the enemy did not go down on the first swing?

He already had landed the first shot so to speak. Momentum is not accounted for social or otherwise but I would keep pushing that button.

Once upon a time there were skill challenges I’m not saying they were good or bad. I wonder did the DM announce “this is a skill challenge here are the victory conditions.” I wouldn’t expect a dragon to fold up with one great roll unless I had a instant kill weapon.

( a vorpal weapon should do it but they nerfed that which is insipid)

 

[Yardiff]

Reading back through the OP's post, at not point did he put forward that the player believed he had put forth his best effort. That was all the other posters reading what they wanted to.

 

[Oofta]

Reading back through the OP's post, at not point did he put forward that the player believed he had put forth his best effort. That was all the other posters reading what they wanted to.

I was referring to the bolded.

The reason the dragon said the paladin could live was because the paladin rolled a pretty strong persuasion roll when explaining to the dragon that he had trespassed on its territory because he was completing a world-shaking mission, the success of which would also benefit the dragon (by ridding it of the great undead dragon that had recently ousted it from it's previous territory.

I thought the player would get that this was a great moment to push the 'I am on a mission from God! Mess with me, mess with my God!' angle. I mean, even the coincidentally climactic background music pointed that way, I thought!

But he just thought 'F*** you, your picking on me', I think. I really don't.

Thanks for your advice. I've been playing for 33 years and made a mistake, I know that.

And to those who have been writing pretty venemous stuff as if I'm one of those dick GMs who just torture players, you know, you can fill the gaps.

 

[Yardiff]

I was referring to the bolded.

As I said that would be you and others reading into that sentence.