Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2e: Actual Play Experience

[CapnZapp]

Any form of "overcorrection" (meaning casters no longer reign supreme as in PF1) is entirely, absolutely, objectively good.

Sorry but there will be no sympathy for d20 casters around here.

 

[Xenonnonex]

That's balance, and then some. Like, having your balance cake with a thick layer of fun frosting on top.

And, I'm sorry, but I'll get, like, the world's smallest violin playing for you, in sympathy, since you've only had 45 years to enjoy OP wizards before PF2 pulled this heinous trick on you...

...which, honestly, I'm not even convinced has really happened, because, Iike I said, we've seen this reaction, before, and it still turned out, fairly quickly, that the wizard was still top of the heap, afterall.

You seem to be conflating my view of the overcorrection of the PF2 wizard with the correction of the PF1 wizard.
No one is arguing that the PF1 wizard is not OP. It should have been designed in the next iterated system with a tight rein. However the PF2 wizard too far in that direction. It is now too mechanically incompetent.

The higher level spells do not do enough damage. The buffs do not last long enough. The best things about the PF2 wizard are the cantrips.

 

[CapnZapp]

No one is arguing that the PF1 wizard is OP.

With respect, everyone is arguing the PF1 wizard is OP.

It should have been designed in the next iterated system with a tight rein.

Again with respect, this has already been done, at least in my view. The system that truly and fundamentally fixes the caster-martial imbalance (and the whole d20 spellcasting infrastructure with it) is 5th edition.

 

[Xenonnonex]

With respect, everyone is arguing the PF1 wizard is OP.

Rather no one is arguing the PF1 wizard is not OP. Will correct.

 

[zztong]

What were the problems with the Sorcerer and Druid? I would be concerned if full spellcasters were 'over corrected'.

From memory, I recall the Druid player didn't like the spells that transformed them into an animal. I seem to remember he didn't think they were worth casting and that was something he felt was central to his conception. Then he pivoted to trying to be a healer and thought he didn't have enough spells to get the job done. He was comparing his healing abilities to the Cleric, who also gets healing through a class feature.

I saw less of the Sorcerer player's experience, but I recall them expressing frustration with the number of spells available to them per day. They had played a Sorcerer a lot in PF1 and was used to have lots of spells to cast each day even if the selection of spells was smaller. This is probably a case where PF2 was okay, but the player didn't like it because it didn't act like PF1. That same player also tried a Sorcerer that depended on the Cleric's spell list and, like the Druid, concluded they couldn't cover the healing.

I'll throw in my recent experience with trying to make a "Shadow Weaver", which was a Rogue who multiclassed into Sorcerer. I chose the Wizard's spell list and hoped to cast light and darkness spells, illusions, and invisibility for Deception and Buffing self and party. So I selected cantrips and spells along those lines. When you multiclass you don't get a lot of spells. My DM was not happy that my character didn't have any combat spells. (I had Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, and I can't think of what my 1st level spell was at the moment, but it was an illusion spell that wasn't Color Spray.) Anyways, the DM thought my character was worthless, but all I had done was follow my character conception. The base of the character was Rogue, getting flank was easy, and damage was flowing okay thanks to the "Dex to Dmg" ability. Later, I would find the DM didn't really like how the multiclass rules were working out. My minor beef with the character was that none of the spell lists were great matches for the character concept and I was very much just making do with a very limited selection that fit. The selection of bloodlines was pretty limited and none matched the character either, but given time I'm sure they'll fill out that list more.

EDIT: On a related note, during the Playtest one of my characters was a Ranger. I wanted a classic Ranger with spells, so I multiclassed into Druid. I recall not being satisfied because the Druid's spell list isn't like a classic Ranger's spell list. The character felt more like a Fighter/Druid than a classic Ranger. Gone was self-buffing, unless I wanted to change into an animal, which didn't fit the concept.

EDIT 2: I recall the DM not being happy to discover that Feather Fall only affected 1 character. The player had mem'd it at 1st level, not slotted higher. Folks at the table weren't sure anyone would heighten Feather Fall unless you knew for sure you were going to need it. At least that's how I remember it. I wasn't the one looking up stuff for that exchange. I seem to recall the DM just house-ruled it affected everyone anyways, and moved on.

 

[Kel Ardan]

Last night one of my players couldn't show for the first session of the campaign so I ran the small adventure Torment and Legacy for 3 players (Rogue, Archer/Fighter, and Generalist Wizard). My first take on the new system is the 3 action economy is fantastic and flows well for most game situations. All the conditions are a little hard to remember and we had to take time to go over them during the game and I think it will take a while for us to get used to them. The combat can be very deadly if the threat is 2 levels above you as they are in this adventure and the fighter got one shot by a critical by the Ogre. I'm pretty sure all three would have been killed if not for the Wizard using Color Spray and slowing the Ogre's onslaught. The Rogue and Fighter kept away on the tall rocks and used range attacks to start until the Ogre was damaged and when the Fighter went down the Wizard used Color Spray. The Rogue was able to get up close and crit the Ogre and the Wizard finished him off with a low level attack spell (can't remember which one).

All three party members almost died and the fighter went down, however since all three built their characters Trained in medicine, they were able to help each other out (plus Hero points saved their butts a few times). I will say this system is going to take a little bit to get used to and not take for granted things we all would assume from earlier systems as things have changed in a lot of little ways. My players are all long time gamers (all in their 40's and all played since their teens) and they all agreed they enjoyed the new system and are excited to keep playing, even the Wizard who really enjoyed the mechanics of the game and felt that he wasn't as gimped as I thought he might of felt because of some of the opinions here. He is pretty much the biggest rules junkie I know and if he felt like something was unbalanced he would be the first to ask to house rule things or not play that class.

After a few sessions in our normal campaign I will reassess the system and how it works as they gain in power and give you an update on what they feel about playing the system. So far all 4 of us liked it even if it will take some slow down moments to go check out some rules here and there, but that's how it is when learning any new system.

 

[Arilyn]

I'm assuming modules will be full of combat as usual. What I'm liking about deadlier fights, is that I can reduce the number of combat encounters, and still get the feel of adventurers in a dangerous world.

Role Master had some problems, as a game, but I remember being really nervous when combat erupted.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Again with respect, this has already been done, at least in my view. The system that truly and fundamentally fixes the caster-martial imbalance (and the whole d20 spellcasting infrastructure with it) is 5th edition. .

The closest we ever saw to a balanced D&D wizard was 4e, and even then, it had a clear, if thin, edge in versatility & out of combat options /and/ only widened that lead in Essentials.

I think the extremes of 3.5 Tier 1 casters & optimized builds desensitized us to imbalance, a bit, so that less-profoundly-OP started to look kinda reasonable. ;P

So you can look at 5e, which took the only slightly OP wizard of Essentials, and gave it more & more powerful spells and much greater versatility, while stripping the martial classes of their 4e-era toys almost entirely, and see "martial-caster balance," while Xenonnonex can look at the PF2 wizard and see an 'overcorrection.'

I'll reserve judgement on the PF2 wizard, for now, but I won't be surprised if it, again, turns out to have the edge, once we get beyond the initial shock of it being powered down instead of it's usual gain with each ed, and the narrow comparison of low-level single-target DPR (which has always been the beatsticks' thing, yet will barely beat your way out of Tier 5).

 

[Kel Ardan]

As someone who has been running and playing 5th edition since the day in came out, how can there be a notion that wizards are more balanced? Any caster class in 5th Edition eats up all the special things the other classes do such as a wizard with the correct background is a better rogue than a rogue at breaking into places, sneaking, convincing people lies etc. Play a Bladesinger and not only can you fight but your ac is off the charts high and you get full spells. There has never been a truly balanced version of D&D / Pathfinder but they are all trying with every iteration. Here's to another attempt and hopefully it keeps being fun at higher levels!

 

[Parmandur]

As someone who has been running and playing 5th edition since the day in came out, how can there be a notion that wizards are more balanced? Any caster class in 5th Edition eats up all the special things the other classes do such as a wizard with the correct background is a better rogue than a rogue at breaking into places, sneaking, convincing people lies etc. Play a Bladesinger and not only can you fight but your ac is off the charts high and you get full spells. There has never been a truly balanced version of D&D / Pathfinder but they are all trying with every iteration. Here's to another attempt and hopefully it keeps being fun at higher levels!

Based on your comment, you are probably not seeing the full adventuring day being pushed: the Wizard is only a "better Rogue" a couple of times, and then they lose their abilities. The Bladesinger can shine for a few fights, but then runs out of resources that they might want to use elsewhere. The Fighter fights, and the Rogue skulldugs, all day, every day.