D&D 5E Is Charm Monster too good?

[5ekyu]

I wouldn't allow a persuasion check to convince someone to attack another current friend. Would you attack a friend if another one asked you to really nicely?

Agreed... but that keys on friend... thsts where the social interaction rules come into play as they emphasize the traits and specifics of the who and what.

If they were close, maybe like I said try and stop the fighting, not kill the other.

But if they did not like each other...

This also comes down a bit to robust GMing. In my dwarf tiefling gang encounter, I had well before then shown a division in the hirelings and the tiefling exploited those prior references specifically in her statements.
So in the case of two cyclops, somewhat mythical known for their internal disagreeability, whether the GM had planted seeds of them being brothers, allies, liked, hated etc each other... goes a long way for enabling or disabling this choice of tactics.


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[DND_Reborn]

I wouldn't allow a persuasion check to convince someone to attack another current friend. Would you attack a friend if another one asked you to really nicely?

If I failed my saving throw and was under the power of a magical spell?? Who knows what I would do... you have to remember, this is magic after all.

Seems to me that the player mentioned in the OP is trying to do things with Charm Monster that would only work with Suggestion.

Why do you think this would only work with suggestion? Even so, if this effect could be accomplished with a 2nd level spell, a more powerful 4th level one should be able to accomplish a similar, if not greater, effect, don't you think?

 

[Oofta]

This is why we have DMs and not a computer running our games. Something like this is complicated, and there is no one right answer. While not outright stupid like Ogres, Cyclops are not particularly bright. The PC did make a good check and Cyclops are chaotic neutral.

I'm not sure I would have run it this way or not but the reaction would not have been automatic. For example if there's no real story behind the cyclops, I may randomly determine if it's even reasonable for one cyclops to turn on another. Maybe they're rivals. Maybe they're bonded mates. Heck if I know.

Charmed is not dominated, persuasion is not magic. So to answer the OP's question: no I don't think it's too powerful. Situationally very useful when the moon and stars align, perhaps overly powerful depending on DM interpretation.

 

[MarkB]

If I failed my saving throw and was under the power of a magical spell?? Who knows what I would do... you have to remember, this is magic after all.

Yeah, but the only thing the magic is doing is fooling you into thinking that the person is your friend when they aren't. That's the point - in 5e, Charmed doesn't really do anything beyond that. It doesn't compel obedience, or even cloud your judgement.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yeah, but the only thing the magic is doing is fooling you into thinking that the person is your friend when they aren't. That's the point - in 5e, Charmed doesn't really do anything beyond that. It doesn't compel obedience, or even cloud your judgement.

True, but that is why the DM asked for the Charisma (Persuasion) check. It was the check that persuaded the cyclops to "protect his new friend" by fighting his comrade, willing to make significant sacrifice and risk harm in doing so.

I think it certainly clouds your judgement if "The charmed creature is friendly to you." when it was before openly hostile.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Agreed... but that keys on friend... thsts where the social interaction rules come into play as they emphasize the traits and specifics of the who and what.

If they were close, maybe like I said try and stop the fighting, not kill the other.

But if they did not like each other...

This also comes down a bit to robust GMing. In my dwarf tiefling gang encounter, I had well before then shown a division in the hirelings and the tiefling exploited those prior references specifically in her statements.
So in the case of two cyclops, somewhat mythical known for their internal disagreeability, whether the GM had planted seeds of them being brothers, allies, liked, hated etc each other... goes a long way for enabling or disabling this choice of tactics.


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Sure, all of those things make a difference. One thing that I would have taken into account is that a cyclops isn’t terribly quick-witted. They won’t have a lot of time to process in a few seconds. 3e had advice that I think is relevant here. If a charmed creature sees some of his allies fighting each other, he’s likely to respond with confusion. I’d normally require some processing time to figure out a course of action that makes sense. A cyclops might just get angry, yell at everyone, and (non-lethally) smack people. Of course this spell specifically prevents him from smacking the caster, so he might default to attacking his ally if it were only the caster and his own allies present. But since there were still other clear enemies (ie, the rest of the PCs) it seems like the far preferable choice is to keep fighting the PC and maybe insult his new friend for a “stupid” suggestion, “No, fight those guys, dummy!” It’s opinion of the other PCs is completely unchanged by the spell.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

True, but that is why the DM asked for the Charisma (Persuasion) check. It was the check that persuaded the cyclops to "protect his new friend" by fighting his comrade, willing to make significant sacrifice and risk harm in doing so.

I think it certainly clouds your judgement if "The charmed creature is friendly to you." when it was before openly hostile.

Just saying, as a player I would probably ask the DM if he is sure about that call. Diplomancy is not supposed to be a thing in 5e, at all.

[Edited to correct autocorrect's correction of "diplomancy" to "diplomacy"]

 

[Gladius Legis]

Why do you think this would only work with suggestion?

Because of the spell descriptions of both spells. Charm Person/Monster isn't out and out mind control. It's strictly a change in target attitude. Suggestion explicitly is a mind control effect.

Even so, if this effect could be accomplished with a 2nd level spell, a more powerful 4th level one should be able to accomplish a similar, if not greater, effect, don't you think?

Charm Monster's advantage over Suggestion is that Charm Monster works on anything. Whereas Suggestion only works on creatures who can hear and understand you.

Whether that's enough of an advantage to be worth being 2 levels higher than Suggestion is another topic altogether, but there it is.

 

[MarkB]

Charm Monster's advantage over Suggestion is that Charm Monster works on anything. Whereas Suggestion only works on creatures who can hear and understand you.

Whether that's enough of an advantage to be worth being 2 levels higher than Suggestion is another topic altogether, but there it is.

Well, its other advantage is that it actually makes a friend for you. Suggestion only allows you to issue a single carefully-phrased instruction. It also requires Concentration.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Just saying, as a player I would probably ask the DM if he is sure about that call. Diplomacy is not supposed to be a thing in 5e, at all.

Fair enough. Like I said in the OP, the DM is up for discussing just how our table wants to rule on this spell. We didn't want to waste time in session, and I wanted to get input from members here.

Charm Monster's advantage over Suggestion is that Charm Monster works on anything. Whereas Suggestion only works on creatures who can hear and understand you.

Whether that's enough of an advantage to be worth being 2 levels higher than Suggestion is another topic altogether, but there it is.

Hmm... interesing.

With Suggestion, you have to give it a course of action or the spell ends as I see it. With Charm Monster, the creature becomes friendly, but only if you can interact with it will it possibly act on your behalf and even then only if you are successful in convincing it to do so.