D&D 5E Fixing the fighter (I know...)

[Son of the Serpent]

Bold is mine...

And WHY wouldn't a Fighter class model that? It seems like a huge flaw to me.

It could model it. It SHOULD NOT model it best (at least standardly). Best was the qualifier there.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Bold is mine...

And WHY wouldn't a Fighter class model that? It seems like a huge flaw to me.

The obvious answer is that people don't want that. In every one of these discussions, there are lots of people who don't want every single class in the game to do supernatural things. The real question is, "Why do you think your style should override everyone else's and prevent them from playing what they want to play?" I mean, there are plenty of options for classes that have supernatural things for you to play how you want. Why must you insist every other class also do that and people who do want a mundane option are just screwed?

Note: I am not saying there isn't room to improve the fighter, so let's just avoid accusing me of that like I was accused of earlier in the thread. There are two different subjects. In fact, the whole point of this thread was how to improve the fighter while still adhering to it's core design goals of being mechanically simpler and not laden with supernatural powers. I don't know how I could have been more clear of the scope of this thread in my very first post.

Instead, we have folks like yourself not even trying to have that discussion, but keep going back to "fighters are teh sux, give them supernatural powerz". Which, I might point out, it directly counter to the point of this thread and is blatant threadcapping.

So...unless you can offer suggestions and discuss others' suggestions already given about how to improve the fighter's out of combat abilities while adhering to the core design requirements, please stop threadcapping.

Thanks.

 

[Garthanos]

To that end, I my growing suspicion is that the answer to these types of threads is not that fighters are too weak, but that casters are generally too broad/powerful.

Yeh probably but there are also good reasons that happens. Many of the original dragons were the size of alligators (look at St George statues) Humans have grown to be so potent we can destroy cities and likely planets we are more awesome for magic to be impressive it well it grew from the classics into a lot more boom boom.

A few do, yes. I think, though, that if you went around and tallied them up, you would find that Cu Cuhlain's story (if there is a singular story that matches what you say and not several...which is also unlikely) is more of an outlier (although I know its your favorite hobby horse).

He was known as a prodigy too... starting out at really early age so yeh very D&D character like... he gained Well described techniques (yes called Feats - familiar word eh) some which went over the top and Perseus Gained Magic Items. Tony pointed out the latter is a very similar to D&D character hero. (but aside from one being internally developed and the other being externally acquired its rather similar.

There's a reason Raglan's Hero traits list includes "reputed to be the son of a god".

Alexander the Great also claimed Divine Heritage but not early his the career.. Hiawatha was doing things that are impossible to the current D&D fighter but not sure he has any godling myth about him.

It may just be an impression at this point but characters like Odysseus (and maybe Herakles) were not possibly not presented as divine early on... and part of the Herakles story does involve him being finally "recognized" by the gods and granted status among them.

Herakles labours were proof of his potency but they could have also been him developing as well.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Yeh probably but there are also good reasons that happens. Many of the original dragons were the size of alligators (look at St George statues) Humans have grown to be so potent we can destroy cities and likely planets we are more awesome for magic to be impressive it well it grew from the classics into a lot more boom boom.


He was known as a prodigy too... starting out at really early age so yeh very D&D character like... he gained Well described techniques (yes called Feats - familiar word eh) some which went over the top and Perseus Gained Magic Items. Tony pointed out the latter is a very similar to D&D character hero. (but aside from one being internally developed and the other being externally acquired its rather similar.



Alexander the Great also claimed Divine Heritage but not early his the career.. Hiawatha was doing things that are impossible to the current D&D fighter but not sure he has any godling myth about him.

It may just be an impression at this point but characters like Odysseus (and maybe Herakles) were not possibly not presented as divine early on... and part of the Herakles story does involve him being finally "recognized" by the and granted status among them.

Herakles labours were proof of his potency but they could have also been him developing as well.

Also it was a god that screwed up his life and made him need to do the labors. That was heras doing. Hera is a jerk. But hera is what truly turnes him into a hero. Ruined his life and gave him the adversity necesaary to prove himself. She should be kicking herself.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Also re: this conan vs hercules thing. Not every "fighting buff type" figure of myth has to be a fighter. That's a flawed assumption. As long as one or more of those legendary heroes can fit the fighter class, then that's all that is needed to justify the argument that fighters can be mythic and legendary. Jason, Perseus, etc are all good examples. Just because Hercules isn't, doesn't mean that fighters can't be.

Also, it was pointed out that Perseus has magic items. Well, yeah. Fighters also get access to the most magic items, and have been since day 1 of the game. That's another feature of the class. The game assumes magic items at some point, so factoring them and how fighters get the most options is a valid important feature.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Also re: this conan vs hercules thing. Not every "fighting buff type" figure of myth has to be a fighter. That's a flawed assumption. As long as one or more of those legendary heroes can fit the fighter class, then that's all that is needed to justify the argument that fighters can be mythic and legendary. Jason, Perseus, etc are all good examples. Just because Hercules isn't, doesn't mean that fighters can't be.

Also, it was pointed out that Perseus has magic items. Well, yeah. Fighters also get access to the most magic items, and have been since day 1 of the game. That's another feature of the class. The game assumes magic items at some point, so factoring them and how fighters get the most options is a valid important feature.

the "MOST" magic items? In what exact way donyou mean that? Like, the most slots somehow?

 

[Sacrosanct]

the "MOST" magic items? In what exact way donyou mean that? Like, the most slots somehow?

No, I meant the most available options. I fully admit in modern editions with a ton more items, and/or with feats that allow non fighters use of items they might not have with their core class (all weapons and armor), it might have changed a bit.

But traditionally, fighters could use more magic items appearing in the game than any other class. About the only ones they couldn't use were scrolls and some wands/staffs/rods. And most items found were weapons, potions, and armor (using the % tables), of which fighters could use all of them, and other classes couldn't.

 

[Garthanos]

Also it was a god that screwed up his life and made him need to do the labors. That was heras doing. Hera is a jerk. But hera is what truly turnes him into a hero. Ruined his life and gave him the adversity necesaary to prove himself. She should be kicking herself.

Oh totally and many heroes have some sort of background that arranges for them to have well lets call it things to do...

In 4e they had a couple of backgrounds that were implying a doom of some sort and unusual births and the like all fitting nicely in the Heroes journey, but those story elements some of them negative had immediate benefit in a that the hero became more awesome responding to the adversity fashion.

 

[Garthanos]

But traditionally, fighters could use more magic items appearing in the game than any other class. About the only ones they couldn't use were scrolls and some wands/staffs/rods. And most items found were weapons, potions, and armor (using the % tables), of which fighters could use all of them, and other classes couldn't.

How many suits of armor do you really need at one time? inquiring minds wanta know
I know Beowulf could swim carrying several squadrons worth but really... he had minions to support.

That was a Gygax balance idea that I do not think worked out in practice... Lots of magical Rings and Arm bands and Magi Robes and Staves and so on were seen at tables I sat at back when in the 80s

 

[TiwazTyrsfist]

Just remember you gotta get your Fighter fixed before 5th level or they never stop spraying the walls to mark territory and humping things.