D&D 5E Fixing the fighter (I know...)

[Tony Vargas]

What confused me was the decision free part.
"Do they have a simple decision free blaster caster?"
Its simple. But decision free?

I suppose "decision free" may be an exaggeration for effect. Certainly, the fighter has been given fewer decisions points than other classes in many editions (and /plenty/ of them in others, like 3.x & 4e), but the point could also be that those decisions can be meaningless or too obvious to be meaningful (in slightly different meanings of 'meaning-'), or be boxed into only one.
Ironically, a game that I otherwise find myself praising rather a lot, 13th Age, delivered a not exactly simple, but essentially decisions-free fighter. The fighter had maneuvers, which maneuver you used was determined by the natural result of your attack roll - you /could/ design the fighter so that several maneuvers activated on the same natural result, and then pick one, but it could also end up with each maneuver triggering on a different result, and thus no choice at all, the character would just run on autopilot.

The point, then, may just have been that there's never been much on that level of "simplicity" offered for casters. So the simple/meaningful choice divide is also the martial/caster divide, when there's no mechanical or conceptual reason it need be so.

I feel like the more spell choice you have the smaller your decisions have to be as they are more forgivable. Smaller effective change per decision.

I suppose there's a distinction between the number of decision points and the number of 'choices' at each point, sure.

Also re: this conan vs hercules thing. Not every "fighting buff type" figure of myth has to be a fighter. That's a flawed assumption. As long as one or more of those legendary heroes can fit the fighter class, then that's all that is needed to justify the argument that fighters can be mythic and legendary. Jason, Perseus, etc are all good examples. Just because Hercules isn't, doesn't mean that fighters can't be.

Heracles didn't exactly (or even remotely) cast spells, rage (intentionally/to his benefit) or constantly 'sneak attack' enemies, and he wasn't an monastic acetic, so Fighter's what's left, in 5e, for instance.

Fighter necessarily covers a lot of ground, in the early game, because there were only two other classes and they both cast spells - so any non-caster, from Beowulf to Lancelot to Robin Hood to Conan to Alexander the Great could only be a fighter. And, even now, because the few other non-casting archetypes you can tease out of the PH (there are no entirely non-casting classes, not even fighter), rage or sneak attack or use supernatural ki powers.
Of course, there are many of those archetypes that fall to the fighter that it just can't do that well (one reason we need the Warlord back).

And, of course "(I know...)" this is nothing new, the discussion of bringing the fighter up to the level of a balanced class and up to the level of the archetypes from genre every other class /has too much supernatural power to emulate/, has been going since early days, and always circles around and runs aground on the same contradictory issues.

Also, it was pointed out that Perseus has magic items. Well, yeah. Fighters also get access to the most magic items, and have been since day 1 of the game. That's another feature of the class. The game assumes magic items at some point, so factoring them and how fighters get the most options is a valid important feature. And most items found were weapons, potions, and armor (using the % tables), of which fighters could use all of them, and other classes couldn't.

It was. It stopped being a particular feature of the fighter by 3e when items were no longer primarily found via weighted tables and class restriction had relaxed a great deal - and magic items aren't assumed, at all, in 5e.

 

[Tony Vargas]

How many suits of armor do you really need at one time? inquiring minds wanta know

One for formal, one for fun.

 

[Garthanos]

Just remember you gotta get your Fighter fixed before 5th level or they never stop spraying the walls to mark territory and humping things.

I thought that was the Druids bear Darn It ... more capable than the fighter ami right?

Ironically, a game that I otherwise find myself praising rather a lot, 13th Age, delivered a not exactly simple, but essentially decisions-free fighter. The fighter had maneuvers, which maneuver you used was determined by the natural result of your attack roll - you /could/ design the fighter so that several maneuvers activated on the same natural result, and then pick one, but it could also end up with each maneuver triggering on a different result, and thus no choice at all, the character would just run on autopilot.

Not fond of that myself... but I can see how it could allow with game savvy creating a character for someone without game interest umm huh?

 

[BookBarbarian]

Heracles didn't exactly (or even remotely) cast spells, rage (intentionally/to his benefit) or constantly 'sneak attack' enemies, and he wasn't an monastic acetic, so Fighter's what's left, in 5e, for instance.

Finding mythical or even fictional examples of those who intentionally Rage to their benefit is pretty hard. That combined with all the various sources of Rage (Divine power, elemental source, Ancestors, anger, animal instinct) has lead me to believe it is a poorly named ability. I have come to think of it as Altered fighting state.

But you are right Heracles was not one to go Super Saiyan. His Rages were actually Rages, not game term Rages and they did not increase his combat prowess.

 

[Garthanos]

It was. It stopped being a particular feature of the fighter by 3e when items were no longer primarily found via weighted tables and class restriction had relaxed a great deal - and magic items aren't assumed, at all, in 5e.

I would say the DMG encouraged greatly building your own worlds and adventures so that ... those random tables become a lot less du jour in that context i think whether intended to or not.

 

[Garthanos]

Finding mythical or even fictional examples of those who intentionally Rage to their benefit is pretty hard.

The I hit anything around me even friends is not always a benefit... even if it comes in handy once in a while.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Finding mythical or even fictional examples of those who intentionally Rage to their benefit is pretty hard.

The classic Berserker is the obvious example.

But you are right Heracles was not one to go Super Saiyan. His Rages were actually Rages, not game term Rages and they did not increase his combat prowess.

My point, exactly. I couldn't say "never raged," because the Greek scholars on line would immediately & triumphantly point out the infliction of madness by Hera.

The I hit anything around me even friends is not always a benefit... even if it comes in handy once in a while.

When swinging wildly at an invisible foe you know is right next to you, for instance.

I would say the DMG encouraged greatly building your own worlds and adventures that ... those random tables become a lot less du jour in that context i think whether intended to or not.

You're not wrong, but it also spelled out that the weighting of the tables was intentional to help with class balance, and advised you to use them as a guide when placing treasure if you didn't do so randomly.

 

[BookBarbarian]

The classic Berserker is the obvious example.

Yup those. But we've reached the point where they amount to 1/6 of the in game Rager options.

But I should stop thread derailing now.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Thanks

 

[NotAYakk]

I'm going to throw a shoe in here.

1. This is a fix to the Champion fighter.
2. It is not balanced against other fighter subclasses.
3. The Champion fighter must remain simple to build, and simple to play.
4. The 5 minute adventuring day is a problem for the Champion fighter.
5. Save-or-suck/lose is a problem for the Champion fighter. They have little to mitigate it.
6. Flying, invisibility, hiding, and other ways that shut-down the Champion fighter being able to attack are a problem for the Champion fighter.

---

Champion Fighter

You are an embodiment of physical perfection.

Level 3: Intense Training

Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a 19 or 20. You gain proficiency in either Dexterity or Constitution saves. When you use your Second Wind, you may use up to half your Fighter Level in HD (round up) as additional healing.

Level 7: Remarkable Athlete

Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength or Dexterity check you make that doesn’t already use your proficiency bonus. If you are proficient in Athletics or Acrobatics, you add twice your proficiency bonus to checks. When making a Constitution check for any purpose you always add your proficiency bonus.

When you make a long or high jump, you can jump additional feat equal to your Strength modifier. If it is a running long jump also add your proficiency bonus.

Every Fighter level now gives an additional 1d10 HD; this does not increase your HP, it just provides you with more HD for healing purposes. This applies retroactively.

You gain proficiency in an additional save of your choice.

Level 10: Combat Mastery

Starting at level 10, you can pick an additional fighting style. Whenever you use your Second Wind, enemies gain disadvantage on all attacks, and you gain advantage on all saving throws, until the end of your next turn. You gain proficiency in an additional save of your choice.

Level 15: Combat Perfection

Starting at level 15, your weapon attacks score a critical on a roll of 18-20. When making a weapon attack you cannot suffer disadvantage. You have proficiency in all saves. Whenever you haven't been hit or failed a save since the end of your last turn, you have advantage on all weapon attacks.

Level 18: Survivor

At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don’t gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.

You may use your Second Wind twice between short or long rests.

When you are hit by an attack, or fail a save, you may as a reaction move up to 10' without provoking attacks of opportunity. If this movement would make you an invalid target for the original attack or effect (due to cover, leaving the area of effect, or leaving range), reroll the attack with disadvantage or repeat the save with advantage and use the new result. After doing so, your movement speed is reduced by the distance you moved next turn.

Level 3 gives you some "5 minute" day power; being able to burn HD with Second Wind.

You constantly gain more saves, until at level 15 you are proficient in all saves. This mirrors the OD&D "fighters have the best saves".

Level 7's improved Proficiency shores up your utility a bit. The jump rules get extended significantly, so you can match or exceed Olympic feats of jumping.

An additional fighting style at 10 was boring. So now you get a super-dodge with second wind (this also shores up 5 minute adventuring day power).

I'm focusing on defence rather than offence, as fighter DPR was already fine.

Level 15, we play with advantage/disadvantage on top of the existing 18-20 crit range.

Never suffering disadvantage is a really neat mechanic -- Frightened, Prone, Exhasted? Still can make attacks. This is mostly a defensive ability.

The advantage trigger is to deal with "why not just ignore the fighter". You get an alpha-strike if you win initiative, and after that the enemy has to connect in order to make you less scary. It is a taunt-less tanking mechanic.

18 was an ok ability, but it was a level 18 ability. It competes with level 9 spell access. (spellcaster cantrip scaling is automatic, and is what the 4th attack competes with).

So we get a 2nd second wind, with both shores up 5 minute adventuring days and boosts durability even more. Then we add in the ability to "sidestep" attacks and spells; this is a very tactical ability, as staying "near cover" can make the difference between shrugging off a save-or-die and death.

So now, a 10 charisma fighter has a +6 save bonus, makes saves with advantage if they have used their second wind, and can force a reroll 1x if they can shift to cover and then another time with indomitable.

Against a DC 25 effect, that is almost a 50% save chance. Against a DC 20 effect, a 73% chance to save. A DC 15, 94% chance to save (assuming nearby cover and indomitable)

Before, it was ~50% at DC 15, ~10% at DC 20+.

The only offence boost I gave the class was the level 15 "threat" ability, and really good grappling. Everything else is utility, endurance and defence.