D&D 5E Fixing the fighter (I know...)

[Garthanos]

I think that's the first time I've ever heard that taken seriously, rather than a nod towards American braggadocio.

'course, I guess that's how legends develop.

It is definitely not "taken serious" but it is exactly where we get legendary and mythic figures...
(though there are archery techniques that might make the Hiawatha archery claims legit LOL
His peace making seems to have been his real awesome. )

Conan also had language indicating he was prodigal exceeding full grown men when quite young with his first kill at 12. and full on superiority at 15, Its just Davy with a bit less extremity

AND to some of us if D&D world wants its casters to be really impressive to modern minds it may find it needs to let the heroic non casters to have some of theirs.

 

[Garthanos]

Well, that's dealing with a supernatural challenge. But, there's nothing supernatural about wrestling. Heroes dealt with supernatural challenges using non-sup all the time.

He chose to engage the challenge of a dying woman by challenging a supernatural force ummm maybe it is and maybe its just an unconventional sort of... oh to hell with it.

Arguably that was a Shamans action

 

[Mort]

Finding mythical or even fictional examples of those who intentionally Rage to their benefit is pretty hard. That combined with all the various sources of Rage (Divine power, elemental source, Ancestors, anger, animal instinct) has lead me to believe it is a poorly named ability. I have come to think of it as Altered fighting state.

But you are right Heracles was not one to go Super Saiyan. His Rages were actually Rages, not game term Rages and they did not increase his combat prowess.

Not a perfect fit, but Cu Chulainn is likely the most obvious example of entering a battle rage for benefit in combat.

 

[Garthanos]

Not a perfect fit, but Cu Chulainn is likely the most obvious example of entering a battle rage for benefit in combat.

And like the Berserks (purportingly becoming Bears ... his battlerage was pretty over the top distortion of his body) Additionally it seemed to be far from his only method of fighting and it included exuding damaging amounts of heat and a protracted cool down as side effects. Love the character

 

[Garthanos]

In the Wheel of Time Chronicles, Robert Jordan gives each of his primaries an in world reincarnative hero background they are the Ta Veren, it explains their prodigal talent and goes beyond that explaining how the world itself sits up and takes notice when they attempt to influence it. And many other things. - This story line was inspired by D&D gaming no less.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

It is true that there's a lot of archetypes out there that specifically /don't/ call for supernatural powers. But, where you put the line between supernatural and extraordinary or superhuman is an issue.

I get that this issue is your bugbear, but I don't think it's material here. What matters is that players have qualitatively different expectations of Conan's capabilities and Heracles' capabilities, not their source.

To be fair, not-supernatural does not need to imply mechanical inferiority nor lower-level. Low-level can be used /in place of strict mechanical inferiority/, though, if that's what's desired. If the story calls for a doughty halfling accompanying a mythic wizard, the one can be 5th and the other 17th - BA is even meant to help with that, a bit ( the halfling can roll a natural 20 to guess a secret door's password, that has eluded the wizard, for instance).

Well, yeah, but that's not what we're talking about here, either. Conan isn't low level. I'd expect him to be able to party up with a character like Heracles and hold his own. Heracles was an Argonaut, remember, but didn't steal the show from all the other heroes there. Another case study might be found in the team of Inigo Montoya and Fezzik: a fighter with fairly mundane physical abilities but a great deal of skill paired with a man of prodigious size and strength, able to accomplish very different things but presented by the narrative as approximately equal in capability and the threat the pose to the Man in Black. Also note that, based on the nature of the adventure and the challenges they face, these guys are good examples of low- to mid-level characters, so Fezzik in particular can be seen as what a Heracles might look like in such adventures.

That's a very specific solution, and probably not the only way (the game /could/ more generally allow for higher stats, without making it necessary everyone take them, for instance - via diminishing returns, perhaps), but it's the right general kind of idea. The fighter class has to be changed fundamentally, or obviated - the way it's designed now, it's too hyper-focused on minimal-versatility DPR to /add/ things to or merely tweak things with a sub-class. (It's not a worse design than any other class, just asked to do too much.)

I think it's exactly what it needs to be to be the Good With Weapons Guy. There's no need to change or obviate that. But you're right that if you try to make Heracles with it you're asking too much of it.

 

[Garthanos]

so Fezzik in particular can be seen as what a Heracles might look like in such adventures.

Fezzik is a bit surprising in that story (quality of character for one thing a very noble man) but is he a brilliant Engineer and a Superb Archer for example just a couple of those things you might attribute to Herakles based on his tasks. Its been pointed out that the versatility of classic heroes is a missing factor in D&D characters (yes even in 4e to a lesser degree).

 

[Ratskinner]

AND to some of us if D&D world wants its casters to be really impressive to modern minds it may find it needs to let the heroic non casters to have some of theirs.

I dunno, man. It seems to be doing pretty well as it is. I doubt that will "find it needs" much more for quite some time.

I mean, there's tons of stuff I would have D&D do differently (every edition so far). I've just come to accept that it won't and play other games to get those. The only drags are that my current group is full of old farts and we keep "reverting" to D&D and that its hard to gather a group for other games with that elephant not only in the room but blocking the door. To some extent, it is what it is.

 

[5ekyu]

I'm going to throw a shoe in here.

1. This is a fix to the Champion fighter.
2. It is not balanced against other fighter subclasses.
3. The Champion fighter must remain simple to build, and simple to play.
4. The 5 minute adventuring day is a problem for the Champion fighter.
5. Save-or-suck/lose is a problem for the Champion fighter. They have little to mitigate it.
6. Flying, invisibility, hiding, and other ways that shut-down the Champion fighter being able to attack are a problem for the Champion fighter.

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Level 3 gives you some "5 minute" day power; being able to burn HD with Second Wind.

You constantly gain more saves, until at level 15 you are proficient in all saves. This mirrors the OD&D "fighters have the best saves".

Level 7's improved Proficiency shores up your utility a bit. The jump rules get extended significantly, so you can match or exceed Olympic feats of jumping.

An additional fighting style at 10 was boring. So now you get a super-dodge with second wind (this also shores up 5 minute adventuring day power).

I'm focusing on defence rather than offence, as fighter DPR was already fine.

Level 15, we play with advantage/disadvantage on top of the existing 18-20 crit range.

Never suffering disadvantage is a really neat mechanic -- Frightened, Prone, Exhasted? Still can make attacks. This is mostly a defensive ability.

The advantage trigger is to deal with "why not just ignore the fighter". You get an alpha-strike if you win initiative, and after that the enemy has to connect in order to make you less scary. It is a taunt-less tanking mechanic.

18 was an ok ability, but it was a level 18 ability. It competes with level 9 spell access. (spellcaster cantrip scaling is automatic, and is what the 4th attack competes with).

So we get a 2nd second wind, with both shores up 5 minute adventuring days and boosts durability even more. Then we add in the ability to "sidestep" attacks and spells; this is a very tactical ability, as staying "near cover" can make the difference between shrugging off a save-or-die and death.

So now, a 10 charisma fighter has a +6 save bonus, makes saves with advantage if they have used their second wind, and can force a reroll 1x if they can shift to cover and then another time with indomitable.

Against a DC 25 effect, that is almost a 50% save chance. Against a DC 20 effect, a 73% chance to save. A DC 15, 94% chance to save (assuming nearby cover and indomitable)

Before, it was ~50% at DC 15, ~10% at DC 20+.

The only offence boost I gave the class was the level 15 "threat" ability, and really good grappling. Everything else is utility, endurance and defence.

I like a bit of what you have here but it seems to me to be a lot more busy and a bit too much.

Simpler bits along these lines.

I agree with allowing spending HD on Second Wind. This reinforces your tough guy fighter bit.

At 7th as an alternative - You are exceptionally resilient and may recover even while active. You may spend an action to spend one HD to either regain HP or recover one "use" of a short rest fighter class ability.

10th, I kind of agree, a second fighting style here is meh, but it's meant to be boring and simple - so I might replace this with:
Extra Effort - by spending a HD you gain advantage on one attack roll or save. Make the choice before you roll.

This gets back to letting his "survivability" grow by means of using HD for protections in the action play, not just at rest.

Really the sum of these is to turn the fighter into a class that can expect to get it's short rest abilities over the course of long rests in either nova quick burns for the "few encounter days" or spread out if they get short rest.

Now, if one wants more skill stuff, instead of more rest balanced and tough-guy focus,

At 7th, I would stick with half-prof to the physicals but consider adding expertise with one skill of these that you have proficiency in. So, it is basically a combo of half-expertise and half-Jack-of-all-trades only for the physicals.

 

[Garthanos]

I dunno, man. It seems to be doing pretty well as it is. I doubt that will "find it needs" much more for quite some time.

Yeh for me its a plausibility thing and people forget that if you let martial types become more awesome you can also afford to make the magic more awesome. If the Hiawatha can fire off a machine gun barrage of arrows at high level.. The spell caster too can be allowed to do more (maybe even just more often).

I think 5e like 4e did manage to get the in combat abilities mostly analogous (multi-target you know is hard as hell to gague) but I do think its still on the "normal" everyday person range instead of the heroic.

The 4e fighter has a knockdown assault with no size limit he will be dropping the Dinosaur or Dragon at high levels when he encounters them.

Not sure if that sounds like the big difference to others that it is for me.

I mean, there's tons of stuff I would have D&D do differently (every edition so far). I've just come to accept that it won't and play other games to get those. The only drags are that my current group is full of old farts and we keep "reverting" to D&D and that its hard to gather a group for other games with that elephant not only in the room but blocking the door. To some extent, it is what it is.

My son gets to play all kinds of weird stuff with his group... including Maid and the likes.