Hey
@Perun. So first note that I am not trying to change or persuade your thinking. All play styles are valid. But I would like to engage your argument.
No problem here. I'm aware that I'm actually on the losing side, as the RAW support the no penalties approach. With that in mind, it's a bit difficult to defend my position, as one has simply to point out the rules (which I actually did) and all of my arguments are irrelevant.
But to cut it short, for anyone not willing to read through the wall of text that follows, what I'm trying to defend is the idea that
if you would be giving penalties for using disguise kit to characters trying to pass off as members of other races, especially those with significant physical differences, you should be giving those same penalties to warforged envoys with integrated disguise kits. No more, and no less.
This is true, to an extent (I'll get more into my differences in thinking about it below). However, it is not just "built-in." A built-in disguise kit could be just a compartment in the chest that opens and is capable of holding the items that make up a disguise kit. The word that is specifically used in the description is "integrated." It is not just a compartment that holds a disguise kit. The warforged's body, or some part of it, is the disguise kit. They are not pieces that can be separated from the warforged. A warforged cannot hand someone else their disguise kit to use any more than I can literally give you my hand so that you can use it. I believe this use of "integrated" versus "built-in" is important. The difference is slight, but I think significant.
Well, in my post when I used 'built-in', I meant 'integrated'. I agree with you here, but English is not my first language, so the difference between the two was not readily apparent to me.
I would say that you are half-right from my perspective, but missing something. A skirmisher warforged rogue does not have an integrated tool, but they may have expertise in disguise. They would need to use a disguise kit the same as any other creature, and I think in this situation such a warforged should have a hard time passing themselves off as human. It is not a simple matter of putting on some makeup and a wig.
We've covered the expertise in tools already. It's fairly difficult to get in game, and the only other option I'm aware of, apart from the envoy, it the (still unofficial) version of the artificer from UA, as both you and
@tglassy mentioned.
The proficiency bonus starts at +2 and goes to +6. That means that an envoy WF will have an effective bonus ranging from +2 to +6 (depending on level) when compared to a skirmisher WF rogue with a proficiency in disguise kit. That's the advantage the envoy gets over other warforged (or other humanoids of different build),
that represents the fact that he was constructed with that one purpose.
But in addition to RAW, we also have to consider RAI (Rules as Intended) and RAF (Rules as Fun). We can't base our whole game experience on RAW.
I think this is where we disagree the most, while being in agreement at the same time, the RAF. I believe that everybody should have fun at the table. This is the no. 1 priority, the Rule 0, if you will. If someone is not having fun, the entire game is pointless.
Someone wants to play a WF infiltrator. There are rules for that. But the character doesn't get to be the best infiltrator ever, just because of flavour or "concept". The character
will be good at infiltration, however you read the rules.
But see below, when I mention other tools available to envoys.
Let's start with Rules as Intended. This is slightly difficult, because we don't know what Ketih Baker was specifically intending with these rules, but we can infer this to some extent based on the presentation of the ability and knowledge of the setting.
Let's first consider what it means when a Warforged Envoy selects a Disguise Kit as their integrated tool. This is not like selecting a normal class proficiency. This is something that is inherent into the very being of the warforged. It is a literal part of who they are, and integral to how they function and the purpose they were made for. Such a warforged is not using a disguise kit. They are the disguise kit. I don't think it was intended that an integrated disguise kit is the exact same as a normal disguise kit.
Agreed on that, we don't know what he
specifically intended with the rules, but we have some indication.
@Cap'n Kobold posted this earlier in the thread:
This actually comes up in the creator's podcast. He suggests that it isn't like a Changeling's ability, it is just an actual disguise kit, with the restriction as to time needed to create disguises and suchlike.
While I haven't actually listened to the podcast, I think that's a strong indication of KB's intentions. Combined with the relevant parts in the WGtE (emphasys mine):
WGtE said:
Integrated tool. Choose one tool you're proficient with. This tool is integrated into your body, and you double your proficiency bonus for any ability checks you make with it. You must have your hands free to use this integrated tool."
and
WGtE said:
In developing your integrated tool, remember that you must have your hands free to use it. Masque, the infiltrator mentioned above, doesn't shapeshift like a changeling; she has to manually adjust her appearance.
So, while the tool is integrated with the envoy's body (and it could be argued that the envoy
is the tool, as you mentioned above), I still see it as a tool. It's not like selecting a normal class proficiency, but it
is like getting a normal racial proficiency, along the lines of how dwarves get to choose between smith's tool, brewer's supplies, or mason's tools. It is different in that for dwarves it's, presumably, a cultural thing (although this isn't specified anywhere, so one could argue it's built-in (or integrated, if you will
) in the very essence of dwarfdom). In fact, it's even more similar to dwarven Stonecunning -- they get proficiency
and expertise in any Intelligence (History) check related to the origin of stonework. Much more limited, of course, but similar.
Going back to the WGtE quotes, according to the rules:
- you have to have both hands free in order to use the integrated tool; and
- Masque is explicitly stated to adjust her appearance manually
Which brings me to this:
I see a warforged with an integrated disguise kit actually sprouting hair, growing artificial skin over their head and hands, having eyes that rotate to reveal different kinds (similar to Man-E-Faces from He-Man), and so on.
Unless I'm not reading the rulebook correctly, this should not be the interpretation intended by the author(s).
I suppose one could argue that the envoy grow hair, switches her eyes to the more human-looking pair, grows synthetic skin, etc., and then
adjusts her appearance in the same sense someone would adjust their tie or shirt or something along those lines.
But I believe that the author intended for the disguise to be applied by hand, same as any other disguise by any other character.
No let's look at Rules as Fun. Warforged are a very distinct race. As they are presented in Eberron, there is literally nothing that they could easily pass themselves off as other than a different warforged, golems, or shield guardians (and none of these creatures are prevalent enough for the average NPC to need to be familiar enough to tell specific individuals apart). This means that if we treat a warforged envoy with an integrated disguise kit as any normal warforged that has access to a disguise kit, we are severely hampering that player's opportunities to be effective and use something that is so central to the core identity of that particular subrace of warforged. If their integrated disguise kit is not sufficient to allow them to allow them to pass as a different race, then we are risking severely hampering that player's fun. They may feel penalized for making the "wrong"choice with their integrated tool, and grow to dislike their character because they can not use their abilities in a way that can meaningfully impact the game, or in the way they may have imagined for their character.
See above. Even if you give some kind of penalty to the disguise kit use to pass off as a member of another race, they've still got the equivalent of expertise.
As for making the "wrong" choice, this is where the DM should step in. If a player IMC wanted to play such a character, I'd let him know in advance the situation he would find himself in. But it would be the same with any other character concept. To use a cliche example, if someone wanted to play a drow character in a campaign where drow are mostly the evil, underground race as resented in the MM, I'd let them know of the difficulties their character might encounter, even if the drow are a core, PHB race. Just because a player imagined their wizard to be the most powerful wizard ever, doesn't mean the DM has to accommodate such "concepts".
Additionally, yes, I would agree that a dragonborn trying to pass themselves off as human would be more difficult. But that dragonborn also does not have a special, built-in racial ability to create disguises from their body. And neither do most warforged. But to penalize a warforged with an integrated disguise kit when trying to pass themselves off as human or demi-human, in my view, is effectively nerfing a player who has an interesting and creative idea. It doesn't break the game to allow it, but by nerfing and penalizing the player it can significantly negatively effect their experience trying to play that character.
Ugh. I feel we're running in circles. The envoy's racial abilities give them proficiency in a tool, a skill and an additional language known. Additionally, they get double their proficiency bonus with their chosen tool. Those are their benefits. That's what makes them good at what they do.
I just can't see the problem. If you've got the following set of characters, all with identical starting ability scores (before racial modifiers):
- a warforged envoy rogue with a charlatan background with an integrated disguise kit, who is focused on infiltration and assassination (specifically of human targets);
- a dragonborn rogue with a charlatan background, proficient in disguise kit, who is focused on infiltration and assassination (specifically of human targets);
- a Brelish human rogue with a charlatan background, proficient in disguise kit, who is focused on infiltration and assassination (specifically of human targets).
who would you say would have the best chances of infiltrating a Thranish stronghold and assassinating the noble high-up commanding it?
If you don't apply any kind of penalty to the use of disguise kit, the envoy would get the best chance by far (+2 to +6 bonus, depending on level), while the dragonborn and human would have about the equal chance.
If you apply penalties or disadvantages, then the human has the best chances, envoy comes second, and the dragonborn is fully penalised (but keep in mind that nowhere am I implying that the penalties should be so severe as to make the character unplayable). This is, IMO, the way it should be.
If that was all Masque could do, there's no way she would be effective, for the following reasons:
1) High-value targets do not always have warforged around. Even if there are a lot of warforged (I contend that they make up a very tiny portion of the population and thus are not so prevalent), not every one uses them, trusts them, or could afford them. House Deneith or House Thrashk are much more likely to act as guards. Additionally, warforged were built for war, not labor. They would not have been used as servants or maids until after the war ended and they were no longer needed as soldiers. I argue that the number of high-value targets that keep a warforged close enough to give Masque the access she needed to be an effective assassin is quite low.
2) High-value targets dying creates a lot of attention and scrutiny. If Masque could only pass herself off as a warforged, then it would be fairly easy to tell after a couple of successful executions that a warforged was doing the killing. That would create increased scrutiny of warforged, and high-value targets would likely reduce or cease all interactions with warforged.
3) Why would Masque be built with an integrated disguise kit that she could not use to easily pass herself off as non-warforged? Why not choose an integrated thieves' tool to increase her effectiveness at infiltration? Or perhaps a poisoner's kit? If an integrated disguise kit was chosen, it was likely done intentionally to make her more effective. If, in order to experience any consistent degree in success, she were limited to only passing herself off as another construct, then I seriously doubt she would have been created with an integrated disguise kit.
I'd say there's a reason only six such envoys were ever made. The idea was great, but in the end it became apparent that, while a warforged infiltrator assassin generally worked, it was far easier and more effective to use appropriate flesh-and-blood assassins.
Picking an envoy's integrated tool does not have to be an optimal choice, from a mechanical standpoint. The rules allow the envoy to select
any tool. Compass Rose, another example envoy, does not get any meaningful mechanical benefit from being a really good google maps app, even with an integrated printer. Same thing with Lute. True, he gets double the proficiency bonus when using his lute, and you could say he's really, really good at playing it, but in order to get any benefits in game, he has to use Performance.
In both cases, the player used exactly the same resources as when creating Masque. You could select brewer's supplies, cobbler's tools, glassblower's tools, dragonchess set or bagpipes or any other tool. In fact, no other tool, with the possible exception of thieves' tools, will have such an effect on the character as the disguise kit.
It's a proficiency in a
tool, and because it's an integral part of you, you get expertise. Some tools are more usable than others, but none provide benefits nearly as good as the ones proposed here. Even thieves' tools are situational -- there have to be locked locks and traps for them to be of any use (we have a rogue in our campaign, and we have had a couple of traps in almost 10 levels, and virtually no locks to open, and yet the player doesn't mind at all, he's had plenty of other opportunities to shine). With disguise kit used as suggested here, you effectively have a slightly weaker
alter self at will. Compared to tinker's tools, that's extremely powerful.
If another player went for envoy focusing on smith's tools, sort of a mobile forge for in-field repair and manufacture of weapons and armour, a viable concept for a warforged, one that would presumably be much more common than Masque and her "siblings", it is he (or she) who would feel penalised playing next to Masque. What do Rules as Fun say in that case?
Very true. I wholeheartedly disagree with your perspective and interpretation and would be very reluctant to play at your table, but I respect your position as equally valid.
Same here, although I wouldn't say I'd be reluctant to play at your table; it's different kinds of approach to the (very open) rules. I don't agree with a lot of house rules my current DM introduced to the game, and would not even consider them at my table, but that doesn't prevent me from having a blast when we're playing.
An interesting discussion, in any case, even though it took me ages to compose this reply!
Cheers!