Cartography - Why the focus on Renaissance?

[Parmandur]

In my experience with nautical campaigns and rule sets, the vast majority of campaigns seem to assume technology from the 17th or even 18th century is available.

I would guess that the number of campaigns restricted to longships and cogs is significantly less than the number restricted to carracks and caravals, and which is in turn less than the number with galleons, and which is in turn probably not that different or even less than the number that assumes ships similar to what they see in 'Pirates of the Caribbean' or other pirate moves where the sailing technology is from the age of criminal piracy - late 17th and early 18th century.

For example, I would suspect almost every nautical game assumes the existence of a 'crow's nest', despite the very late date of the crow's nest being invented and the fact it would or should never appear in a 'medieval' themed game.

See also, Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

 

[Ratskinner]

I'm not sure if my point is getting across.

For example, if you look at most fantasy cartography, you'll see buildings with slate roofs. Virtually no thatched roofs (just as a single example). Most fantasy city maps will show sewer grates, something that's wildly out of place. And, most urban maps will have no locations for housing animals. Just as a few examples of things you would expect to see (or not see) in a pre-Renaissance town or city.

I've run into this problem before. I think some of it is that folks don't want to be reminded of just how filthy the middle ages were. Honestly, in some periods and places, you should have to make a Con save upon entering town.

Another big part of it is just the artistry involved. People like pretty maps and maps from that era are arguably some of the most beautiful. Were also a little too used to the idea of maps with accurate scaling. I've seen this really old Roman map of the empire. It was basically a "subway map" of the roads with all the towns along the roads, with different symbols to indicate various amenities for travelers at each location. The map bore precious little relation to actual Mediterranean geography.

For Tolkien's part....even though those frontispiece maps are obviously for the reader, not the characters, it seems that most people forget that. For most of human history, a geographically accurate map was either simply unavailable or ridiculously expensive. I don't actually produce campaign maps anymore, for that reason. At best, I'll make a "subway map" of the major roads, rivers, and traderoutes.

Some of it is understandable, though, we are often playing in worlds that are historically quite different (and romanticized) from our own.

 

[Garthanos]

Personally I think I want a healthy chunk of my fantasy landscape to not be even just the renaissance era cleaned up I want it to feature incredible magical cities and and ruins of ancient magical places with domes and spires bridge work and architecture of designs that are perhaps even futuristic... the world is in the after math of a technomagic apocalypse and recovering... a bit like Thundarr the Barbarian but less modern looking EVEN more magically flavored quasi-technology and more people actually starting to make progress in spite of the fear and more dangers they do not know the nature of. I am fine with modern people finding some of it comfortably clean

 

[Rob Kuntz]

I want a healthy chunk of my fantasy landscape to not be even just the renaissance era cleaned up I want it to feature incredible magical cities and and ruins of ancient magical places with domes and spires bridge work and architecture of designs that are perhaps even futuristic...

"Tell me many tales, O benign maleficent daemon, but tell me none that I have ever heard or have even dreamt of otherwise than obscurely or infrequently. Nay, tell me not of anything that lies within the bourne of time or the limits of space; for I am a little weary of all recorded years and chartered lands.

"Tell me many tales, but let them be of things that are past the lore of legend and of which there are no myths in our world or any world adjoining. . . . Tell me tales of inconceivable fear and unimaginable love, in orbs whereto our sun is a nameless star or unto which its rays have never reached.

To the Daemon, by Clark Ashton Smith

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Steam tunnels?

I've been thinking "after my current, oh-so-modern campaign wraps, I kinda want to run something like a semi-mythical mega-dungeon, where the whole campaign is delving deep into one ancient labyrinth, each level deadlier but more rewarding than the one above."
Now I really want to.

I just got an idea from the wording of this post.

What if i chart the general flow of mythology and language through history AND MAKE A MEGA DUNGEON THAT IS SHAPED LIKE IT? With each mahor section being major mythological groupings and with routes between being major mythological evolutions between that are present IRL, with some that are touching and blend seemlessly for related major groups, and secret passes between some that are related but distantly due to geography and time (like from ancient greek and etruscan would be a pass called apollo's pass (he visited "the hyperborians") wich would lead to the section corresponding to the north atlantic sea folk's myths, which would lead through a more obvious connection to scandinavian myths)

 

[Zardnaar]

Probably because there's buildings from that time frame still around.

Medieval stuff is usually just forts, castles, churches etc. Not much survived. You generally look at ruins or archeology. Exceptions tend to be government building s.

Or go visit Malta, Tuscany, Venice.........

 

[Ravenbrook]

I would guess that the number of campaigns restricted to longships and cogs is significantly less than the number restricted to carracks and caravals, and which is in turn less than the number with galleons, and which is in turn probably not that different or even less than the number that assumes ships similar to what they see in 'Pirates of the Caribbean' or other pirate moves where the sailing technology is from the age of criminal piracy - late 17th and early 18th century.

Yeah, I always found it rather odd that fantasy pirates are always depicted as running around in baroque outfits while the PCs are dressed as medieval knights.

 

[Hussar]

See also, Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

To be fair, The Sea Ghost, the PC's ship from GoS, is a (very large) Hansa Cog, single masted and actually very spot on. Now, some of the other ships in the module...

Great stuff folks. Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything said here. And THANKS a bunch for those Glorantha maps. They is purdy.

And, I really hope that folks get that me blaming Tolkien was a joke.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

To be fair, The Sea Ghost, the PC's ship from GoS, is a (very large) Hansa Cog, single masted and actually very spot on. Now, some of the other ships in the module...

Great stuff folks. Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything said here. And THANKS a bunch for those Glorantha maps. They is purdy.

And, I really hope that folks get that me blaming Tolkien was a joke.

You blamed Tolkien! For shame! The Witch King will have your hide for that! Now go and rebuild Moria...

 

[Rob Kuntz]

I just got an idea from the wording of this post.

What if i chart the general flow of mythology and language through history AND MAKE A MEGA DUNGEON THAT IS SHAPED LIKE IT? With each mahor section being major mythological groupings and with routes between being major mythological evolutions between that are present IRL, with some that are touching and blend seemlessly for related major groups, and secret passes between some that are related but distantly due to geography and time (like from ancient greek and etruscan would be a pass called apollo's pass (he visited "the hyperborians") wich would lead to the section corresponding to the north atlantic sea folk's myths, which would lead through a more obvious connection to scandinavian myths)

Now you're onto something perhaps never done (or at least admitted to). Could this be... Fantasy...? I did something along a similar design axis but thematically different and organizationally compressed due to size/scope. It became an (now unpublished) example of the breadth of what i call the application of the RPG Engine (IOW, applied imagination). I have felt for quite some time that we need more matter in this hobby of the type that you suggest.