D&D 5E Why different HD types for classes? (Another HP thread...)

[DND_Reborn]

Those first levels were designed to go really really fast... I admit I have no interest in sub heroic play so there is that. Periodically a battlemaster might even be using precision attack to make sure a specific attack works. And there is action surge too at level 2.

The fighters attack stat is less than your wizards, interesting choices.... don't those choices deserve an impact? They will eventually very soon get completely overshadowed.

Only you are going to notice that 5 percentiles on a single attack (because you see it on a die). The character sees his ally attacking twice or doing a bunch of cool things in combination with their weapon attack these are much more visible things.

True. I know from our posts we have very different things we want in play. I know you like fast and more heroic games as were I enjoy gritty, realistic, and slower paced advancement. And that is cool--everyone likes different things after all.

My point is this is ultimately a failing of the over-simplified proficiency bonus in 5E. Because the same bonus is used for everything, it creates issues where wizards can hit more often (even if only 5%) with weapons. Even with ability scores the same a wizard has the same bonus in combat.

Now, that is fine I suppose at level 1, but it true later on. Frankly, the reliance on ability score raises to offset the issue is not an elegant solution. I am nearly at the point of just abandoning 5E and returning to 1E/2E. The more I talked to the other players in my group yesterday, the more they like the way things sound compared to 5E.

 

[Garthanos]

I am nearly at the point of just abandoning 5E and returning to 1E/2E.

A level 1 an AD&D fighter has zero bonuses on to hit in 1e... unless he has better attack stat sound familiar? I think you misrepresent.

 

[DND_Reborn]

A level 1 an AD&D fighter has zero bonuses on to hit in 1e... unless he has better attack stat sound familiar? I think you misrepresent.

It's a lot more than just this...

 

[Tony Vargas]

. I am nearly at the point of just abandoning 5E and returning to 1E/2E.

Ironically, I sometimes feel the same way - because 5e (after 3e & 4e) feels so much like 2e. Going back to actual 1e at least has the virtue if authenticity.

 

[Garthanos]

It's a lot more than just this...

There were definitely worthwhile features from that era and actual feel of simultaneous action going on instead of taking turns like a game of checkers. (

 

[DND_Reborn]

A level 1 an AD&D fighter has zero bonuses on to hit in 1e... unless he has better attack stat sound familiar? I think you misrepresent.

And even at level 1 Magic-Users" were *one point worse than Fighters, not the same.

Magic-user needs to roll 11 to hit AC 10.
Fighters needs to roll 10 to AC 10.

I don't misrepresent.

 

[Garthanos]

How is your 1st level wizard getting 18 DEX using the standard spread that you assumed? It's not like they get a +2 race adjustment and a +1 feat bonus.

18 DEX on a wizard with that not being possible to match on a ranger or paladin looks like it required house rules or rolling. House rules that created your perceived issue requiring additional house rules to fix? Maybe give more thought to the first rules. Rolling? That's luck and not a rule to fix.

A 1st level wizard can have the same proficiency bonus and ability score modifier as any class. Looking at that is looking in a vacuum. The armor proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, hit dice, hit points, and other class abilities are different.

The wizard doesn't have the weapon proficiencies as the immediate disadvantage. Fighting styles exist early. Weapon damage sucks at 0 hp.

I'm not sure I understand your point of view. One minute it looks like you're complaining wizards should have tough as fighter hit points and the next complaining about wizards potentially being as accurate as fighters at low levels.

I think he was cooking the numbers... oooh my I could have an 18 Dex and the warriors have 16 str because that is so completely "normal" nudge nudge wink wink

 

[DND_Reborn]

Hmm... I am a wizard, an elf, and have low hp and can't wear armor... I guess I WON'T put my second highest score in DEX... yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Did the other player roll higher and have a 17 for his STR? Oh, gee, he did. Wait, his race doesn't get a STR +2 so he can't get higher? Nope.

Hold it! We both get the same proficiency bonus? Cool! So my wizard, who only knows how to use a handful of weapons, can attack as well as the fighter (well, ok ranger and paladin in this case...)-- actually, better even!, even though that fighter has training in EVERY single and martial weapon and all the armors and I spent most of my time studying to learn about magic? WOW!

Yeah... I cooked up all that just to waste my morning posting about it.

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah... I cooked up all that just to waste my morning posting about it.

I have seen people do all kinds of reaching for corner cases to e-war on whatever the latest edition is it has probably tainted my view on it. I am not overly fond of the latest edition but honestly fighters in 5e make the 1e ones look terrible by level 5 overwhelmingly so.

 

[Ashrym]

Hmm... I am a wizard, an elf, and have low hp and can't wear armor... I guess I WON'T put my second highest score in DEX... yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Did the other player roll higher and have a 17 for his STR? Oh, gee, he did. Wait, his race doesn't get a STR +2 so he can't get higher? Nope.

Hold it! We both get the same proficiency bonus? Cool! So my wizard, who only knows how to use a handful of weapons, can attack as well as the fighter (well, ok ranger and paladin in this case...)-- actually, better even!, even though that fighter has training in EVERY single and martial weapon and all the armors and I spent most of my time studying to learn about magic? WOW!

Yeah... I cooked up all that just to waste my morning posting about it.

It's obviously cooked when the 18 DEX is based on the elven wizard's second best roll. Pointing out the low hit points and no armor doesn't change that. That only demonstrates why the high score is less useful for the wizard in the first place.

Dex based fighters work well. Showing a DEX wizard will still be behind the fighter at 1st level. Apples to apples that's a light crossbow vs a light crossbow or better weapon and the archery fighting style.