D&D 5E Why different HD types for classes? (Another HP thread...)

[Garthanos]

Well, for one thing the universal proficiency bonus, while simpler, is a big issue as well. I don't think a wizard should have the same chance of hitting with their weapon as a fighter given equal ability scores, but that is another issue.

How often is the wizard hitting with this weapon as opposed to using a cantrip?

 

[DND_Reborn]

How often is the wizard hitting with this weapon as opposed to using a cantrip?

With that thinking, why give them any weapon proficienies at all?

Because not everyone takes an offensive cantrip all the time. The wizard I just made last night for our new game has no offensive cantrip, for example; he has Light, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, and Prestidigitation.

Even so, that doesn't mean I want him to act as good as the ranger or paladin in the group because he has the same proficiency bonus. With his DEX 18, he actually has a better chance of hitting in melee or thrown than either of our two main warriors! Personally, I would be fine with wizards, et al. having a -1 or -2 penalty to their weapon attack rolls. I am fine with them being good due to ability scores, such as my high DEX, but not "skill."

 

[Garthanos]

With that thinking, why give them any weapon proficienies at all?

You answered your own question

Because not everyone takes an offensive cantrip all the time. The wizard I just made last night for our new game has no offensive cantrip, for example; he has Light, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, and Prestidigitation.

Then that means to me that he is more like gandalf and uses his staff or whatever ...

 

[DND_Reborn]

You answered your own question

Then that means to me that he is more like gandalf and uses his staff or whatever ...

Sorry, you responded before I finished editing my prior post.

 

[Garthanos]

Even so, that doesn't mean I want him to act as good as the ranger or paladin in the group because he has the same proficiency bonus.

The fighter is attacking twice (ie finding twice as many opportunities) by level 5 even in 5e (In 4e the fighter has weapon based attacks that get multiple Weapon dice sized attacks or affecting multiple enemies and having neat side effects)

They are not acting as good from the characters point of view the wizard is lame.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The fighter is attacking twice and finding twice as many opportunities by level 5 even in 5e (In 4e the fighter has weapon based attacks that get multiple Weapon dice sized attacks or affecting multiple enemies and having neat side effects)

They are not acting as good from the characters point of view the wizard is lame.

Well, we are level 1 and it will be quite a while before we hit level 5. Basically several months of playing.

Until then, my wizard with +6 on attack rolls will be more likely to hit than our two warriors (who are both +5) until at least level 4, and that is IF they use their ASI for an ability boost, at which point they will match me.

Once again, your wording leaves me a bit confused. I am not even certainly what you mean by your last sentence. This has nothing to do about the point of view of the wizard.

 

[Garthanos]

Well, we are level 1 and it will be quite a while before we hit level 5. Basically several months of playing.

Those first levels were designed to go really really fast... I admit I have no interest in sub heroic play so there is that. Periodically a battlemaster might even be using precision attack to make sure a specific attack works. And there is action surge too at level 2.

The fighters attack stat is less than your wizards, interesting choices.... don't those choices deserve an impact? They will eventually very soon get completely overshadowed.

Only you are going to notice that 5 percentiles on a single attack (because you see it on a die). The character sees his ally attacking twice or doing a bunch of cool things in combination with their weapon attack these are much more visible things.

 

[Garthanos]

Heck periodically in 5e the fighter by level 5 is finding 4 times the openings.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In 1e he was: his save vs spells was superior, on the theory he could interfere with the other magic. In 5e he can cast Counterspell, so, that possibility is covered, and then some.

I don’t know that Counterspell by itself qualifies as “covered, and then some”.

However, the Abjuration school in total gets us most of the way, not to mention many wizard schools’ defensive benefits.

Absorb Elements is a big life saver against spells that Shield can’t help against, for instance.

I do still want to dev a system by which Counterspell can be made a function of having spell slots, rather than a specific spell. It would come with the system by which weapon users can disrupt enemy casters by making reaction attacks, and both would require some playtesting to get into a good place, but I think it’d be worth it.

 

[Ashrym]

Well, we are level 1 and it will be quite a while before we hit level 5. Basically several months of playing.

Until then, my wizard with +6 on attack rolls will be more likely to hit than our two warriors (who are both +5) until at least level 4, and that is IF they use their ASI for an ability boost, at which point they will match me.

Once again, your wording leaves me a bit confused. I am not even certainly what you mean by your last sentence. This has nothing to do about the point of view of the wizard.

How is your 1st level wizard getting 18 DEX using the standard spread that you assumed? It's not like they get a +2 race adjustment and a +1 feat bonus.

18 DEX on a wizard with that not being possible to match on a ranger or paladin looks like it required house rules or rolling. House rules that created your perceived issue requiring additional house rules to fix? Maybe give more thought to the first rules. Rolling? That's luck and not a rule to fix.

A 1st level wizard can have the same proficiency bonus and ability score modifier as any class. Looking at that is looking in a vacuum. The armor proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, hit dice, hit points, and other class abilities are different.

The wizard doesn't have the weapon proficiencies as the immediate disadvantage. Fighting styles exist early. Weapon damage sucks at 0 hp.

I'm not sure I understand your point of view. One minute it looks like you're complaining wizards should have tough as fighter hit points and the next complaining about wizards potentially being as accurate as fighters at low levels.