D&D 5E Encounter/CR Rules An Artform

[Zardnaar]

A lot if people on the forums seem to think the encounter rules are not very good.

Personally I barely use them but I thought I would take a look.

One big mistake I see is people looking at CR numbers and thinking CR= level. Or they think in terms of 3.5 with CR being +/- 4.

Even in 5E this is blatantly false. For example using Hoard of the Dragon Queen as an example at level 7 you can encounter a CR13 white Dragon. Totally unfair right?

A white dragon is worth 10000 xp so going to page 82 of the DMG a deadly encounter for 5 level PCs is 8500xp for a party of 5 or 10200xp for 6 PCs. That dragon is a bit if a stinker encounter RAW for 5 PCs at level 7 but perfectly fine RAW for 6 or 5 PCs at level 8.

Deadly encounters in 5E also don't tend to be that deadly but if you deplete the PCs resources over the 6-8 expected encounters that dragon will probably start to look a lot more dangerous. RAW are working as intended?

I suspect a lot of people are running less than the 6-8 encounters however and outside a dungeon hack it's probably harder to justify at least from a narrative in game world. For example an urban adventure probably won't have that many encounters nor will a hex crawl. And if they do you have probably found a dungeon in the city.

Now the example I used a dragon. Action economy doesn't tend to favor big solo type critters regardless of how big they are. Unless the CR is quite higher than the PCs.

Now looking at that deadly xp budget for level 7 PCs again. 10200xp. That budget is enough for almost 15 CR 3 critters each worth 700xp. However there is multiplier for numbers on page 82. 3-6 of them have a X2 multiplier.

6 CR 3 critters are worth 4200xp but are treated as 8400xp which is roughly a hard or deadly encounter.

How tough that encounter is would depend on what the CR3 critters are. Alot of NPCs are CR3 such as knights, veterens archers along with spellcasters in Princes of the Apocalypse.

An NPC party could be a knight, Archer, 2 veterens and 2 spellcasters. A decent looking fight but probably not in the same league as the Dragon.

However what if you use 6 hellhounds instead? A pack of 6 hellhounds can pump out 36d6 damage worth of breath weapons.

CR 3 is also when NPC spellcasters turn up with level 3 spells. This includes fireball and lightning bolts. This boosts up damage to 48d6 and spells don't need to recharge.

So right there we have 3 examples of how extreme 5E encounter rules can be RAW.

Compounding that is what the PCsare playing.

6 PCs no feats
6 PCs feats
6 newbs
6 powergamers
6 experienced players.

And this ignore party composition, terrain, positioning, cover etc. Do you have 2-4 primary casters? How much healing is available.

This is why I think encounter guidelines don't work. Even new players can struggle and some if these deadly encounters are not that deadly. Others are rapidly heading into tpk area.

Personally I have switched to using milestone leveling. They get to level up if they defeat Bob. They can hack their way to Bob, lure him out, or sneak up to him avoiding encounters. They can also defeat Bob socially either by talking Bob around/down or possibly going over Bob's head to Bobs superiors.

My deadly encounters are also around 50% to 100% above the party level in terms of CR. The higher level the PCs are the larger that gap can be. I don't use the multiplier for mooks so a dragon might have a dozen or two Kobolds helping them out especially if the PCs are level 8 or 9.

5E critters also deal lots of damage relative to CR. Spellcasters also have a high level relative to CR with level 18 casters starting around CR 12 which means PCs around level 6 or 7 can start encountering them.

How dangerous those spellcasters are depends on what spells they are packing. This is an old trick dating back to AD&D which might have something similar but they won't have the best battle spells memorized. RAW meteor swarm level 7 is fine.

Now don't get me wrong this is not a shot at 5E the rules weren't any better or worse in 3E or 4E. AD&D 2E gave more vague oultines but covered basics such as don't use critters that require magic weapons to hit if more than half the party lack them.

Personally I mix things up. One session won't have any combat or 1-2 encounters, next session all combat one after that 2-4 encounters. My last one had undead hordes my latest dungeon for level 5 PCs includes lots of constructs in the CR 7-9 range. A deadly+ encounter in my games can go X5 over the deadly xp budget often for a boss fight with 1 encounter/day.

Ymmv of course. However you do it have fun.

 

[cmad1977]

My experience with the CR rules have been really positive. They are NOT hard and fast rules. They do seem to largely deliver what they promise.

One example:
I designed the final session of ToD using the CR rules.
The final fight, by CR, was a medium encounter. With that in mind, after the heroes had chosen their approach to the still rising Temple of Tiamat, I chose to have the following spread of encounter difficulty.
Medium
Hard(with help)
Deadly
Medium(the final scene in the temple with the cultists summoning Tiamat).

It turned into a white knuckle race to stop the ritual (2 rounds left).

In context the CR rules work great. Especially when there are more than just combats that challenge the players or when the fights involve objectives that aren’t simply “smack the bad guys”

IME of course.

PS: I also don’t get butthurt when one of my ‘deadly’ encounters gets negated by clever play.

Example:
Had a great swamp scene with these scary beasts (forgot their name) being led by bullywugs. I was looking forward to a great scene of panic as the Things started turning people to stone. The Tenpest cleric caused a massive wave that washes the beasts away and left a bunch of wimpy bullywugs to be slaughtered. Awesome.

But: The tempest cleric had used one of his few high level slots and other powers were used in the fight so... I feel the CR rules still kinda delivered.

 

[Oofta]

Deadly doesn't mean auto TPK, it just means there's a good chance of killing a PC. In addition, there's no one formula that will work for every group. I've run for multiple groups at the same time, same level, same options. Yet one group could handle significantly tougher encounters.

In any case I use alternate spreadsheet that works fairly well. Basically it just adds up the XP budget for both sides and compares while ignoring the number of opponents. I'd attach the document, but apparently you can't attach spreadsheets on this board.

 

[Zardnaar]

Deadly doesn't mean auto TPK, it just means there's a good chance of killing a PC. In addition, there's no one formula that will work for every group. I've run for multiple groups at the same time, same level, same options. Yet one group could handle significantly tougher encounters.

In any case I use alternate spreadsheet that works fairly well. Basically it just adds up the XP budget for both sides and compares while ignoring the number of opponents. I'd attach the document, but apparently you can't attach spreadsheets on this board.

Yeah ignoring the number multiplier is usually a good idea unless they have a AoE effect or can cast spells.

 

[Oofta]

Yeah ignoring the number multiplier is usually a good idea unless they have a AoE effect or can cast spells.

Aww, c'mon. There's nothing wrong with throwing a half dozen flameskulls (they're only level 4!) at a level nine party and then setting up the scenario so that there's a good chance they all go first. Oh and monsters always go on the same initiative, right? My wife would never do that!

So yeah, even with a guideline that works 80% of the time, you still need to take into consideration environment, spells, how worn out the party could be and so on.

 

[tetrasodium]

in 5e, the CR rules & multiplier thing in the dmg is pretty useless due to being overly complex & fiddly in practice... but the table in xge giving rough estimates is useful for ballparking it.

 

[Quickleaf]

I agree. Encounter building is largely a creative endeavor.

However, an aspect of the conversation that's often overlooked is the Adventuring Day Adjusted XP Budget on DMG page 84. Those adventuring day guidelines are actually a decent starting point, in my experience.

So in your example – four 7th-level PCs (adventuring day adjusted XP = 20,000) against a CR 13 adult white dragon (XP 10,000) – it's definitely a winnable yet challenging fight for a party that's fresh, playing smart together, and/or well-prepared for a flying frost-breathing monster.

I actually ran an encounter quite similar to this with a party of four 6th-level PCs (adventuring day adjusted XP = 16,000) fighting a CR 12 titanoboa (XP 8,400). It played as very tense, with some close calls, one PC death averted by the luck of the dice, but ultimately the PCs won and cut the head off the snake. There were no combat encounters prior to this one during that adventuring day, though they did expend some resources exploring. Later in the same session they encountered another enormous snake, though this one was blind and they parlayed with it. The players were very nervous about the prospect of fighting another enemy as tough as the titanoboa they slew, but fortunately their parlay went over smoothly. Having that fight before the parlay helped build tension during the interaction scene.

 

[Zardnaar]

I agree. Encounter building is largely a creative endeavor.

However, an aspect of the conversation that's often overlooked is the Adventuring Day Adjusted XP Budget on DMG page 84. Those adventuring day guidelines are actually a decent starting point, in my experience.

So in your example – four 7th-level PCs (adventuring day adjusted XP = 20,000) against a CR 13 adult white dragon (XP 10,000) – it's definitely a winnable yet challenging fight for a party that's fresh, playing smart together, and/or well-prepared for a flying frost-breathing monster.

I actually ran an encounter quite similar to this with a party of four 6th-level PCs (adventuring day adjusted XP = 16,000) fighting a CR 12 titanoboa (XP 8,400). It played as very tense, with some close calls, one PC death averted by the luck of the dice, but ultimately the PCs won and cut the head off the snake. There were no combat encounters prior to this one during that adventuring day, though they did expend some resources exploring. Later in the same session they encountered another enormous snake, though this one was blind and they parlayed with it. The players were very nervous about the prospect of fighting another enemy as tough as the titanoboa they slew, but fortunately their parlay went over smoothly. Having that fight before the parlay helped build tension during the interaction scene.

Funny my PCs are level 5 and I thought about using a titanoboa but thought it was a bit cruel. Leave that idea to level 6 or 7.

I'm using Possessed Pillars and Ushtabi from the same book inside a magical egg dungeon where the top is a magical electrical storm. To get to the other rooms they have to climb over the walls exposing themselves to the storm.

 

[Shiroiken]

I've ignored the Encounter Guidelines since I started running 5E. Since I was converting 1E adventures, I just ran with what was there, and my players were fairly experienced with D&D (if not necessarily 5E, even though we all did the playtest). I started checking some of my "encounters" (I hate this term, because I design for what should exist, not what the party can handle), and found that they were regularly taking on twice the Deadly value, even disregarding the multiplier for number of creatures. I've even hit them with triple Deadly, but one Hard encounter with them at nearly full resources was almost a TPK because the party wasn't properly prepared.

Parties vary in player skill, cohesion, and tactics, and no single system is going to work for everyone. The problem with 5E is that these are simple guidelines that can be easily broken in either direction. Two Adult White Dragons can be only a Hard encounter for a high level party, but if the party isn't prepared correctly, it can be vicious. Conversely a horde of orcs might be Deadly for the same group, but with enough AoE and some distance, it's a cakewalk.

 

[Leatherhead]

Threads like this make me remember how much I miss the 4e monster math.