Need some build advice! (Grappling Caster)

[Cocomonkey]

And then it says if you attack with them you get a bonus action attack with them for free, or you could use other abilities (like Flurry of Blows) that let you make regular unarmed strikes as a bonus action (but these would still use STR).

Right (although it would be with DEX, not STR).

But I think if you make a grapple attempt, it wouldn't be an attack with the arms, and so it wouldn't by itself proc the bonus action attack with the arms. But once you have extra attack you could grapple once and attack once with the arms, and then qualify for the bonus action attack.

Yeah. And I think you'd still need to attack with your regular fists for the grapple (can't grapple through a weapon, after all). Then punch with the astral arms for regular attack and bonus attacks.

I'm not seeing in the document what damage die the arms use? (This is the first I'm reading it, tbh) Is it based on your martial arts die?

It's a monk weapon, so it would use your martial arts die, yep.

It's interesting to be able to grapple and punch using WIS, but since you're not a spellcaster anyway, it's not completely obvious to me why that makes you a better grappler per se than a fighter using STR, say, who uses one of their attacks to grapple. I guess maybe you can do a bit more damage, since at level 5 you can get one grapple and two attacks, vs the fighter's one grapple and one attack (assuming they don't have another way to get a bonus action attack), but the fighter isn't using resources to do it, is probably doing more damage per attack, and has higher AC... (plus bonus feats)

If it's a fighter with restraining strike like you mention later, it would still be expending resources (superiority die) to grapple. Using WIS over STR as a monk versus fighter is mostly just flavor, letting you do the same thing as a monk as you would as a fighter, with a stat you'll likely have a higher score in.

Also, if we're including UA material and giving up on spellcasting, why not a Battlemaster with unarmed fighting style and the Restraining Strike maneuver?

TBH, I'm not sure I see the appeal of the unarmed fighting style. The d8 attack only works on the initial attack; once it's grappled, it would be a d6 damage die (because you only have one hand free, the other is holding the target), so once a monk scales up to d8 MA die, they're out-damaging that. The extra grapple damage is only a d4, so only 2.5/rd on average (which I know can add up over time, but still). And restraining strike can't even trigger off of an unarmed attack (it requires a melee weapon attack, not a melee attack, so an unarmed strike wouldn't trigger it). So unarmed fighting style and restraining strike...don't go together well? All the UA style adds is the extra d4 damage per round.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but at 11, a fighter with 20 STR, UA style, and restraining strike would what...d10+5 weapon attack (assuming LS used 2h), superiority die/restraining strike as BA (+9 + 4.5 for sup die, so +13.5, avg, or +17.5 avg with Prodigy) for d4, then 2 more attacks for d8+5 with advantage (LS used 1h). Subsequent rounds would be 3 attacks for d8+5 with advantage plus d4. No BA attacks once it's grappled (that I can think of). So...

Round 1 - d10+2d8+15+d4 = 5.5+9+2.5+15 = 32 dmg avg
Round 2+ - 3d8+15+d4 = 13.5+15+2.5 = 31 dmg avg

5 rounds = 156 dmg
5 rounds if you use action surge in one of them = 184.5 dmg

(Not factoring in advantage, because I don't know offhand how that affects these kinds of calculations.

With the Astral Self Monk at that point with say 20 DEX and 14 WIS, round 1 would be BA trigger arms, attack for grapple (+6, or +10 with Prodigy), extra attack for d8+5+d8 (bonus astral arm damage), with advantage if with Grappler (but if so, no Prodigy or less DEX). Subsequent rounds would be 2 attacks and 2 BAs each for 1d8+5, with advantage if with Grappler, plus the 1d8 bonus die for attacking with the arms. And if you know combat is about to occur, you can summon the arms beforehand as preparation; they last 10 minutes. So...

(No Arms Already) Round 1 - BA arms, grapple, 2d8+5 dmg = 14 dmg avg
(No Arms Already) Round 2+ - 5d8+20 = 44.5 dmg avg

(No Arms Already) 5 rounds = 192 dmg avg

(Arms Already Out) Round 1 - grapple, 2d8+5 (reg attack+bonus), 2d8+10 (BA) = 33 dmg avg
(Arms Already Out) Round 2+- 5d8+20 = 44.5 dmg avg

(Arms Already Out) 5 rounds = 211 dmg avg

Am I missing something here with the math? It seems to me like an Astral Monk in this situation is going to out-damage a fighter with restraining strike and UA, even if they use a weapon. And even if the monk has to spend the first round setting up, over 5 rounds they'd out-dmg a fighter even if the fighter action surges.

If the monk takes both grappler (to match the advantage on attacks from restraining strike) at prodigy (for the boost to Athletics to keep the grapple) and loses say, 2 DEX, that only drops the 5-round averages to 175 dmg average with no arms already out and 193 dmg average if they're already out. Still higher than the fighter.

Outside of the grapple situation, sure, the fighter would be making 3 attacks for 1d10+5 (with LS used 2h) or 1d8+5 (with shield) versus 3 attacks (no flurry) for 1d8+5, and would have higher AC (18/20 versus 17 for Monk). And less HP (d8 versus d10, and likely lower CON, so what, around 2/3 of the HP of the fighter?). So survivability would be a factor, for sure. But as long as it stays alive, seems like it will out-damage the fighter, and if it ops not to grapple, the arms can be used as reach weapons to still make the 5d8+20 round attacks against anyone within 10 feet (so increased survivability).

 

[Esker]

Right (although it would be with DEX, not STR).

Oh, yeah, of course.

Yeah. And I think you'd still need to attack with your regular fists for the grapple (can't grapple through a weapon, after all). Then punch with the astral arms for regular attack and bonus attacks.

Yeah, it's a bit of a weird middle place since they're arms, and they let you grapple using WIS, but as written you're using your wisdom to grapple using your regular arms. The language in the rule needs some tightening, IMO, but that's not too surprising since it is UA after all.

It's a monk weapon, so it would use your martial arts die, yep.

Ah, right. Sorry, I've never played a monk so I'd forgotten the "or a monk weapon" clause in that ability.

If it's a fighter with restraining strike like you mention later, it would still be expending resources (superiority die) to grapple. Using WIS over STR as a monk versus fighter is mostly just flavor, letting you do the same thing as a monk as you would as a fighter, with a stat you'll likely have a higher score in.

Yeah, but restraining strike is icing on the cake for the fighter. What they're able to do without expending resources is fairly comparable to what the Astral Self Monk is doing with resources.

TBH, I'm not sure I see the appeal of the unarmed fighting style. The d8 attack only works on the initial attack; once it's grappled, it would be a d6 damage die (because you only have one hand free, the other is holding the target), so once a monk scales up to d8 MA die, they're out-damaging that. The extra grapple damage is only a d4, so only 2.5/rd on average (which I know can add up over time, but still).

The extra d4 is per attack, isn't it? I don't see the benefits of the fighting style as hugely powerful, but if you're going to be doing a lot of grappling it's nice to be able to get a little damage along with it. If you have a shield, you can switch off between damage and grappling without having to sheathe a weapon (though then you don't have the free hand to continue attacking once you have the grapple, unless you take Tavern Brawler, in which case you are proficient with shield bash, which now does 2d4+STR, slightly above dueling style). If you don't have a shield you can grapple and punch for d6+d4+STR, which is half a point below what you'd get with dueling style, but comes out ahead with the initial 1d4 on the grapple itself.

And restraining strike can't even trigger off of an unarmed attack (it requires a melee weapon attack, not a melee attack, so an unarmed strike wouldn't trigger it). So unarmed fighting style and restraining strike...don't go together well?

Unarmed strikes are considered melee weapon attacks, even though your fists aren't considered melee weapons. It's one of those wording oddities.

On my phone at the moment, so not going through all the math, but I'll have a look when I get a chance at my computer.

 

[Esker]

Ok, so going through the 11th level comparison:

Build 1: Vuman Battlemaster, Empty hands, Unarmed Style, 20 STR, Prodigy, (Some other Feat)

Build 2: Vuman Astral Monk, Prodigy, 20 WIS, 16 DEX (prioritizing WIS makes the actual grapples equally effective since both have Prodigy, and allows two free BA attacks with the arms instead of spending ki to do Flurry of Blows)

We'll assume 2x 5 round encounters per short rest, which is too many rounds, IME, but it should favor the monk since they are spending ki per encounter rather than per round.

For simplicity, I'll assume a 60% base chance to hit with your main stat, and for extra simplicity just assume that both characters hit often enough to get their bonus damage from other superiority dice and empowered arms, respectively, since both are triggered after you know you hit. I'll also assume that the grapples are successful; both have a +13 on their Athletics check, though the fighter gets a +1d10 on the initial attempt.

Fighter:

E1, R1: 2H Unarmed Strike, BA Grapple (Restraining Strike), 5x 1H Unarmed Strike (Action Surge) at Advantage from Restrained

Expected Damage: (1d8+5 + 1d4) w/o advantage + 5x(1d6+1d4+5) with advantage
= (4.5+5 + 2.5)0.60 + 5(3.5+2.5+5)*0.84 = 53.4

E1, R2-R5: 3x 1H Unarmed Strike at Advantage

Expected Damage: 4x(3x(1d6+1d4+5)) at advantage = 4*3*(3.5+2.5+5)*0.84 = 110.9

Total Damage in Encounter 1 (w/o Superiority Dice): 164.3

Encounter 2: Same but no action surge, so reduced by 3*(3.5+2.5+5)*0.84 = 27.7

Total Damage in Encounter 2 (w/o Superiority Dice): 136.6

Remaining Superiority Dice: 3d10 = 3*5.5 = 16.5

Total Damage / SR: 317.4

Monk:

E1, R1: BA summon arms, Unarmed Strike (using DEX)

Damage on Hit: 1d8+3 = 7.5
Expected Damage: 7.5 * (0.50) = 3.75

E1, R2-R5: 4 Attacks With Arms (using WIS)

Damage on Hits: 4x(1d8+5) = 4*(4.5+5) = 38
Bonus Damage: 4d8 = 18
Expected Damage: 4*(38*0.60+18) = 163.2

Total Damage in E1: 167

E2, R1 (assume w/i 10 min so arms already out): Grapple + 3 Attacks w/ Arms (using WIS)

Damage on Hits: 3x(1d8+5) = 3*(4.5+5) = 28.5
Bonus Damage: 1d8 = 4.5
Expected : 28.5 * 0.60 + 4.5 = 21.6

E2, R2-R5: 4 Attacks With Arms

Expected DPR: 163.2

Total Damage in E2: 184.8

Total Damage / SR: 352

So, with these simplifications, the monk is edging out the fighter's damage by about 10%. The assumption of longer encounters favors the monk, since they have a relatively weaker 1st round, whereas the fighter gets a boost from action surge in one first round per SR. The assumption that the fights are within 10 mins of each other also helps the monk. And the fighter is also getting some debuffing with restraining strike, though to be fair the monk has ki to spare that they are likely going to be using on stunning strike, so that's close to a wash I'd say. The fighter also has a feat to spare, which could be used on something like Magic Initiate to get Hex, which will add a fair bit of damage for two or so encounters per day, since the bonus action is currently not being used after the 1st round.

So anyway, I think it winds up being fairly close. I thought the fighter would be comfortably ahead, which isn't the case, at least with these long encounters. But I had also missed the Empowered Arms feature before.

 

[Cocomonkey]

So anyway, I think it winds up being fairly close. I thought the fighter would be comfortably ahead, which isn't the case, at least with these long encounters. But I had also missed the Empowered Arms feature before.

Awesome, glad to know someone else's math came out around the same as mine. I know the fighter has a few more options available to them in doing the same thing, but I don't necessarily have to play the best min/max version of this. I just wanted to find a way to do it that seemed interesting without being too subpar, so as long as this monk is somewhere around the same level, I'm cool with it. The fact that it might edge out the fighter in damage is icing on the cake, really, heh. I'll have to report back how it goes; my monk's joined the campaign, but they're still only 2, and the astral self monastic tradition doesn't get chosen until 3 (and even then, this likely won't really come online much until 5-6, when it has enough ki points to do 2-3 encounters per SR safely).

 

[Salthorae]

I mean to be fair... the Astral Monk is crazy and weird.

To have it out edge the fighter is damage just means it probably won't see print as-is!

 

[Esker]

I mean to be fair... the Astral Monk is crazy and weird.

To have it out edge the fighter is damage just means it probably won't see print as-is!

Well, it edges out the fighter for a specific grapple-focused build, with some relatively favorable workday assumptions, and without the fighter taking advantage of their level 6 feat. The base monk is really weak on damage, so I don’t personally mind that Astral Self is strong here.