D&D General Art in D&D

[QuentinGeorge]

They basically repackaged fantasy as "Young Adult" and that seems to have worked in attracting more women, even when the stories are pretty much the same as ever (and YA is a fairly ludicrous category anyway.)

 

[Hussar]

Well, I'm not really sure you can say "the stories are the same as ever". That's certainly not true in YA fiction.

For one, you actually have female protagonists. Something Fantasy and certainly the pulps lacked until after the 80's. Never minding that that most pulps read like Nazi fan fiction. While writers like Lovecraft rightfully get criticised for their blatant bigotry and racism, it's not like the hobby exactly covered itself in glory for a VERY long time.

Young women didn't read fantasy in the 70's? Shocking!!

And, if you really don't believe how bad things were, just ask yourself why we know the best selling author of all time by her initials and not the fact that she is a woman. And she was writing in the 90's.

YA fiction has been changed considerably since the release of Harry Potter.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Well, I'm not really sure you can say "the stories are the same as ever". That's certainly not true in YA fiction.

For one, you actually have female protagonists. Something Fantasy and certainly the pulps lacked until after the 80's. Never minding that that most pulps read like Nazi fan fiction. While writers like Lovecraft rightfully get criticised for their blatant bigotry and racism, it's not like the hobby exactly covered itself in glory for a VERY long time.

Young women didn't read fantasy in the 70's? Shocking!!

And, if you really don't believe how bad things were, just ask yourself why we know the best selling author of all time by her initials and not the fact that she is a woman. And she was writing in the 90's.

YA fiction has been changed considerably since the release of Harry Potter.

Sorry, I might have been a bit glib in my response - I was actually closer to what you were saying there. Plenty of the stories that YA are telling and not that different to what in the 80s and 90s would have just been termed "fantasy", except with more female protagonists.

I can't speak much to pulps because I haven't read a lot of them. I love Lovecraft despite some of his unsavoury beliefs, and enjoyed a good amount of Howard, but a lot of the others are a bit same-same. Many of them, especially the American pulp authors, had a strange obsession with miscegenation. (I still can't get over the Tarzan story I read where there was a Queen distantly descended from an African whose descendants had exclusively bred with captured Europeans, yet the narrator kept angsting over being a different race to her....dude.)

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Because those were the majority types that had read the pulps, the dime novels, and the latter speculative fiction market deriving from these and that eventually drove a detour to such via the advent of RPGs? Umm. Could be...

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

I think the idea that there was a paucity of female speculative fiction readers in the 80s or later... to fit in the category of "extraordinary assertions require extraordinary evidence".

I will accept that the wargaming root was male-dominated. But I don't buy that for fiction readership.

Yep. Women in the 60s and 70s were much more likely to keep their fandoms to themselves, because of toxic male fandom, but that’s about it.

Chicken and Egg problem, though, isn't it?

It would be, if the idea that women weren’t into pulps and fantasy and Star Trek wasn’t complete and absolute nonsense.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

It would be, if the idea that women weren’t into pulps and fantasy and Star Trek wasn’t complete and absolute nonsense.

You answered this potential problem yourself.

Women in the 60s and 70s were much more likely to keep their fandoms to themselves, because of toxic male fandom

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You answered this potential problem yourself.

I have no idea what you’re trying to say here. I didn’t raise a potential problem.

 

[Parmandur]

It would be, if the idea that women weren’t into pulps and fantasy and Star Trek wasn’t complete and absolute nonsense.

Exactly, that's my point: saying "gosh, they weren't into that in the '60's" says more about the unwelcoming culture extant at the time than women not liking fantasy.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

"LITERALLY everyone"? Really?





Huh. Looks to me like not "everyone" appears to have agreed that this was cheesecake from the very beginning.

Yes. Literally everyone. Yes really @Hussar . My quote never says its not cheesecake. In my quote im clearly calling into question people who dismissively say its just cheesecake. You wasted a lot of time typing that.

Read the text very slowly if you are having comprehension issues. I never say its not cheesecake in that post. You're being just a bit daft lol. Are you experiencing temporary illiteracy?

Or are you just unable to let this go? What you posted doesnt say what you say it said. So either you are mistaken, or you are making stuff up at this point as no where in that quote or any others by me do i say its not cheesecake. Congratulations.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

I have no idea what you’re trying to say here. I didn’t raise a potential problem.

To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say either. To me, it seems like you're trying to deny that there were problems with art, stories, etc. because there was potentially female fans of them.

I realize that my previous post might not have a lot to deal with that sort of thing, but I have absolutely no patience for people saying that kind of thing, nor do I plan on getting it.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Yep. Women in the 60s and 70s were much more likely to keep their fandoms to themselves, because of toxic male fandom, but that’s about it.

It would be, if the idea that women weren’t into pulps and fantasy and Star Trek wasn’t complete and absolute nonsense.

No proofs. I state proofs. There was no "toxic male fandom" back then. Girls were doing what they did and either joined boys in what they were doing or vice versa. By the same token, if Girls were playing doll house are they then of "Toxic female fandom" if the boys did not wish to join and then judged them accordingly? No. Sometimes the two genders met, more often they did not, Mary Gygax, my sister, the Gygax girls, my girlfriends, my mother, my Aunts, they understand what we were dong and none of them had a mind to join in it even though the invites were there. Model train collectors and simulationists of the same time period--predominantly male as well--are now Toxic Males by such standards? Hogwash. They just admired trains and went about demonstrating their admiration for them, just as my sister went about admiring doll houses and built one, or gardens and planted one, or when she saw something in "alternative medicine" when the rest of the family did not. Difference. It makes the world go round if one can accept it as not being 'Toxic'.