D&D General How To Reconcile the Settings

[PsyzhranV2]

1. I dont assume massive populations. I assume it will happen if those popilations contact at all which happens without the massive amounts.

2. Its unquantifiable how "safe" that assumption is. But it is the most direct assumption available to make and the safEST roughly. Bar none.

So you're arguing that:

1. Tens to hundreds of millions of people on a single continent is already too many, even when we've seen in history that it's perfectly possible?
2. People are idiots, peaceful diplomacy and conflict resolution is impossible and all armed conflicts will escalate to wars of extermination?
3. Humanoid races, no matter if they evolved naturally on the Material Plane, were created in their current form by gods or by advanced precursors, or are descended from Fey, elemental, or other extraplanar immigrants, are going to fall into patterns of behaviour resembling early homo sapiens and other genus homo organisms, no matter their origins, technology level, or quirks of being?

... I don't think that holds up. At all. How far are you extending these assumptions? Elves? Lizardfolk? Thri-kreen?

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Honestly at this point I just think it's people projecting their neophobic and elitist sentiments onto a "classic" setting. Like, people, just come out and say you don't like tieflings and the latest generation of players that they're massively popular with. Don't do this whole Greyhawk song and dance.

I think part of the issue with Greyhawk is that because it was the first big setting (Blackmoor is pretty niche), it really didn't have many options for races, and almost all of Gygax's original players were human (maybe all, I'm not sure).

And because Greyhawk is so directly tied to nostalgia and playing D&D "how it was originally meant to be played" (I'm trying to think like a grognard now), I understand why people would find a PC of an unusual race in Greyhawk off-limits, as they were typically cast as racial enemies, most famously Drow in Against the Giants.

Part of me respects that, especially as I do like the idea of maintaining the "danger" factor of certain races like Drow and Orcs, which I think Forgotten Realms has inadvertently made a lot tamer as half-orcs and Drow PCs are considered fairly normal (and in the case of D'rizzt have made a Drow PC practically a stereotype). Seeing these races firmly placed as terrifying again would be nice to see.

Of course, I'd like more depth added to Greyhawk Orcs/Drow as having a race being evil "because they are" is problematic for entirely different reasons...

 

[Son of the Serpent]

So you're arguing that:

1. Tens to hundreds of millions of people on a single continent is already too many, even when we've seen in history that it's perfectly possible?
2. People are idiots, peaceful diplomacy and conflict resolution is impossible and all armed conflicts will escalate to wars of extermination?
3. Humanoid races, no matter if they evolved naturally on the Material Plane, were created in their current form by gods or by advanced precursors, or are descended from Fey, elemental, or other extraplanar immigrants, are going to fall into patterns of behaviour resembling early homo sapiens and other genus homo organisms, no matter their origins, technology level, or quirks of being?

... I don't think that holds up. At all. How far are you extending these assumptions? Elves? Lizardfolk? Thri-kreen?

1 eh

2 generally um duh

3 there is reason to say its more likely than if they werent such a similar biological form.

4 yes

 

[Mecheon]

Seeing these races firmly placed as terrifying again would be nice to see.

Orcs were low level mooks. They were never terrifying. They're especially never going to be 'terrifying' now that we're in the age where Warcraft exists and orcs have moved so far past "They are the evil people we can freely attack" to "They are another culture we got problems with but they're people" that its so far in the distance no one can see it.

Eh, I don't see Tieflings making sense in Greyhawk. Sure, there is extraplanar contact, but it's not really keeping with the feel of the setting to have random half-outsiders running around.

Aside from the well known half fiends of the setting, I've always held the opinion that Planetouched should just spring up in areas where there's been big ol' magic related to a thing used. So anywhere Iuz's forces have torn through, people will just occasionally have Tieflings as kids rather than humans.

 

[Coroc]

Orcs were low level mooks. They were never terrifying. They're especially never going to be 'terrifying' now that we're in the age where Warcraft exists and orcs have moved so far past "They are the evil people we can freely attack" to "They are another culture we got problems with but they're people" that its so far in the distance no one can see it.


Aside from the well known half fiends of the setting, I've always held the opinion that Planetouched should just spring up in areas where there's been big ol' magic related to a thing used. So anywhere Iuz's forces have torn through, people will just occasionally have Tieflings as kids rather than humans.

You do not know my orcs in my greyhawk setting then.
First they are build more than PCs stat wise than mobs.
Second they operate as a well disciplined army in the service of Iuz.
They are well armed and some are heavily armored.
They use Pike formations and archers, sometimes mounted on manticores,
Big mob numbers can be frightening in 5e.
Their officers and generals are worthy solo encounters depending on party level.


Another take on orcs which I consider very good especially for a humanocentric low magic campaign is to describe encountered orcs or goblinoids very vaguely by their fangs red glowing eyes, martial outfit, whatever. If the players never did encounter an orc before, you can make them frightening just by using the right description.



Tieflings are not very common in my take on greyhawk but I allow them as PCs. But not those of Iuz Origins (Tanar'ri originated), but the other faction.
Iuz operations are a thing also devils got an interest in, so they are occasionally scouting Oerth with all consequences, of course they usually cannot enter the prime at will but sometimes a summoning goes wrong or whatever.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You do not know my orcs in my greyhawk setting then.
First they are build more than PCs stat wise than mobs.
Second they operate as a well disciplined army in the service of Iuz.
They are well armed and some are heavily armored.
They use Pike formations and archers, sometimes mounted on manticores,
Big mob numbers can be frightening in 5e.
Their officers and generals are worthy solo encounters depending on party level.


Another take on orcs which I consider very good especially for a humanocentric low magic campaign is to describe encountered orcs or goblinoids very vaguely by their fangs red glowing eyes, martial outfit, whatever. If the players never did encounter an orc before, you can make them frightening just by using the right description.

You seem to be confusing two entirely different things here.

1. Orcs, the disorganised and not-terribly - threatening beings which have existed in D&D since the 1970s, and which have never, in terms of stats, or official setting lore been "terrifying". At most they might have been mildly scary to newbies who didn't know what they were.

2. Coroc's Orcs, which are apparently massively buffed in terms of in-game stats, have a totally different culture, one which is basically identical to Hobgoblins, and even possibly have a different appearance to modern D&D Orcs.

Claiming Orcs should be "terrifying again" on the basis of an unusual homebrew take on them is not reasonable. I could, with better justification say "Kobolds should be terrifying again!" because they were in a well-run Dragon Mountain campaign, even though that was basically the only time, because that was at least an official campaign. Heck I could say the same with Halflings because in Dark Sun, they are scary little cannibals.

It's also worth noting that the whole "make D&D scary and deadly" thing was absolutely done to death quite recently by the so-called Old-School Revolution games, like Dungeon Crawl Classics. Those games are cool, but it's clear there's limited appetite for that sort of thing.

 

[Coroc]

You seem to be confusing two entirely different things here.

1. Orcs, the disorganised and not-terribly - threatening beings which have existed in D&D since the 1970s, and which have never, in terms of stats, or official setting lore been "terrifying". At most they might have been mildly scary to newbies who didn't know what they were.

2. Coroc's Orcs, which are apparently massively buffed in terms of in-game stats, have a totally different culture, one which is basically identical to Hobgoblins, and even possibly have a different appearance to modern D&D Orcs.

Claiming Orcs should be "terrifying again" on the basis of an unusual homebrew take on them is not reasonable. I could, with better justification say "Kobolds should be terrifying again!" because they were in a well-run Dragon Mountain campaign, even though that was basically the only time, because that was at least an official campaign. Heck I could say the same with Halflings because in Dark Sun, they are scary little cannibals.

It's also worth noting that the whole "make D&D scary and deadly" thing was absolutely done to death quite recently by the so-called Old-School Revolution games, like Dungeon Crawl Classics. Those games are cool, but it's clear there's limited appetite for that sort of thing.

Regarding 2. I absolutely wanted orcs for their CE alignment and not LE Hobgoblins because Iuz is CE.
Otoh I wanted them to be rather like hobgoblins. Their chaotic traits come out by other things. Remember 2e drow were also CE, still they had their rules and their organized society, the chaotic for them was "break the rules and do not get caught" and everything is fine.

Yes, to all of your statements, and the 5e standard orc is mechanically only dangerous to a level 1 party.
But to make just a green colored human out of it is the other end of a player playing an elf as a human with pointy ears. To me and my table RP in RPG has some meaning and that requires that an orc is an orc with all his cruelty, disgusting behavior and whatever else traits.
It is a mob who will not hesitate to eat you raw if he is hungry after defeating the party in battle. That fact is independent of his only 12 HP or what have you.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

So you're literally saying that people who don't want to portray all Orcs as cruel, vicious cannibals aren't "real roleplayers" and that RP has no meaning to them?

Seriously?

Because if not you probably want to delete the incredible sentence where you say that.

 

[Arnwolf666]

Orcs were very much cannon fodder in early d&d. I don’t mind the changes. They are still pretty weak. They are definitely not beholders or mindflayers. But they are more of a challenge in the first tier than they used to be. There dangers was always numbers. They were the critter that the fighter would kill half a dozen of to show he was a badass.

 

[Coroc]

So you're literally saying that people who don't want to portray all Orcs as cruel, vicious cannibals aren't "real roleplayers" and that RP has no meaning to them?

Seriously?

Because if not you probably want to delete the incredible sentence where you say that.

Nope I did not say that all orcs have to be like that but what I wrote is the standard orc not from a mechanical point of view but from his typical behavior at least in my standard campaigns , sorry D&D is a bit about stereotypes, that is part of the game, and nothing I feel bad about.
And other people are free to portray their orcs as pacifistic dope-loving hippies in their campaigns if they have fun with that, and they still are of course real roleplayers and it does not devalue their campaign or playstyle in any way.

See D&D has been diverse and multicultural way before this got such a high value in society.
Already in 2e (Back in 87 or 89? i cannot remember) they decided that there be no differences anymore in stats or whatever for male or female characters. I think 1e still had this that males could have higher strength.

Still there were stereotypes and there still are and that's it it is just a game not reality.