D&D 2E Which is the better fantasy rpg and why: D&D 5e or Pathfinder 2e?

[Ruin Explorer]

Y'know, it seems like D&D's lifecycle has been one of feeling too limited, at first, then adding options until they start to cause problems, then hitting the re-set button. 2e and 3e, in particular*, followed that pattern.

* Other TSR era eds just had mechanical problems from the beginning, and 4e had PR problems before it even hit the shelves.

I don't really agree and I feel like you're being facetious! Shocking I know!

2E was in a great place, I would argue, in 1999, mechanically. You had tons of options and they were presented well in a modular way. Some of it was silly but it was easy to pick and choose.

Whereas 3E was a mess from year one, thanks to linear Fighters and PRCs and trap feats and monkey grip and fullblades and so on. All the worst, most broken PRCs and combos, especially the practical ones were all in by what, year three? Before 3.5E even, I think. Later books for 3.XE were often far less broken than the early books! To me that's a hard disprove on what you're saying, because they kept 3.XE going after having broken it almost immediately.

4E was also different as you imply. It had PR problems far bigger than mechanical problems and the um, patches WotC kept putting out fixed most major or common mechanical problems. It also didn't collapse from new additions.

Offhand I can't think of any RPGs except Rifts which definitely match what you're describing.

Pretty sure the real reason we get edition resets is partly to update the aesthetics and mechanics and so on, but more importantly to re-sell us stuff like this was a new version of the Sims.

 

[Ancalagon]

It depends.

Now I have only played PF1, but if character builds and adding 7 modifiers to a single attack roll is your idea of fun, go with pathfinder .

If playing the damn game is more important, go 5e.

If you are a goblin, play the GLOG.

 

[Anoth]

Just depends on how much crunch I feel like. Although anymore I like games that have classes so well designed that people will not want to multi-class out of them. I want players to feel a hit if they MC.

 

[Retreater]

Can't rank because I haven't been able to find a PF2 game to join (or the players to create my own). So in my actual real-world experience, I guess it doesn't really matter which I'd prefer. D&D 5e is the only fantasy RPG I can find players for - so by default, you know my winner.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Which is the better fruit and why: strawberries or blueberries?

Another trick question!

I don't really agree and I feel like you're being facetious! Shocking I know!
2E was in a great place, I would argue, in 1999, mechanically. You had tons of options and they were presented well in a modular way. Some of it was silly but it was easy to pick and choose.

I'd given up on 2e years before, so maybe they miraculously fixed all the problems they'd initially kept from 1e, and introduced in complete & 'option' series books. Or, more likely, we just have very different assessments of that edition.

Whereas 3E was a mess from year one, thanks to linear Fighters and PRCs and trap feats and monkey grip and fullblades and so on. All the worst, most broken PRCs and combos, especially the practical ones were all in by what, year three? Before 3.5E even, I think.

That was kinda the gist of the original 'CoDzilla' rant, too: that no matter how broken, bloated, and hard to keep current with, the overall system got, nothing could ever be busted much worse than the Tier 1 classes in Core.
It's not entirely wrong, but it does ignore the pernicious effects that bloat had on the Tier 2-5 classes and other existing options - including, perhaps ironically, occasionally elevating them a bit, but you missed out on it if you didn't keep up with the latest.
FWIW.

Pretty sure the real reason we get edition resets is partly to update the aesthetics and mechanics and so on, but more importantly to re-sell us stuff like this was a new version of the Sims.

There is always that, yes. The moreso with half-eds, like 3.5, which is why they held so strictly to the party line that Essentials was not a half-ed, but an alternate entry point & fully compatible (once the rest of the game had been errata'd to death - I mean, Magic Missile, alone, required how many updates to finagle in the auto-hit?).

Anyway, the important point is that 5e has avoided the trap of "adding options until they start to cause problems" at the price of "feeling too limited" for 5 years and counting. That's a plus or a strike against it, relative to PF2, depending on whether you want an adequate system more than fear a bloated one.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Tony Vargas]

Can we really say anything, one way or another, about PF2 bloat.

I sure can't. I can't even confirm with certainty that it exists. But there was more material published for PF1 in less than 10 years, than for 3e & 4e combined.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm sure we will find out how well the PF2 system is designed w/r/t additional material moving forward, because I'm sure that Paizo will continue an aggressive publication schedule.

There you go: if you fear bloat, you'll prefer the safe haven of 5e over the hope that PF2 (in stark contrast to PF1/3.x and every edition of D&D that preceded it) will turn out to be robust enough to handle expansions.

 

[GreyLord]

I dislike the bounded accuracy concept in it's limiting of Fighters to hit better, but 5e's willingness to let it be broken easily by Rogue's Expertise or certain spells from Clerics or Wizards. If they equally applied it better, or gave Fighters something akin to Expertise with weapons, I'd like it better.

On the otherhand, while I like that PF2e has a greater advancement and no bounded accuracy, the entire feats thing is too much. It feels more like they are restricting what I can do with their class abilities rather than allowing me to do things. It feels a LOT more restrictive than other games while at the same time giving me FAR MORE to keep track of.

In the balance of the two, I'd choose AD&D...but as that is not an option, I'll go with 5e. Better something with unequally applied Bounded accuracy than a more restrictive allowance of actions based on a Feat system for everything.