D&D 5E Countering Rest Spells (Tiny Hut, Rope Trick, et al)

[Oofta]

Twilight Domain Cleric gets it.

I wasn't assuming UA domains, but yes.

 

[Fenris-77]

The decision to take LTH instead of some other options at the same spell level shouldn't be undersold. As mentioned above, there are a lot of great spells at 3rd, especially for Wizards. The opportunity cost is actually pretty high for the first handful of levels a Wizard might have it, On top of that the spell isn't a problem unless it's being abused, that seems to be the consensus (and I agree).

Do we actually think that's it's LTH or Rope Trick that's actually the issue here, or is it player groups with a particular approach to resource management? I feel like those players are going to be working the 15 minute workday thing with or without those spells. For me, it's the 15 minutes workday that's the real issue, not so much any one example of it.

 

[NotAYakk]

Bards get ritual casting lite; only on spells known. So it costs a spell known, but not a spell slot.

 

[Seramus]

Do Do actually think that's it's LTH or Rope Trick that's actually the issue here.

LTH is an issue, but not because of the rest situation. LTH is a 10 minute super bunker that allows free skirmishing for allies.

Forget the people who are using it for naps. It's the parties that set up bunkers at choke points, block entire rooms, and use it as a safe place to retreat when they get low that is the issue.

Not because of the tactics (which should be rewarded) but because no other 3rd level spell comes close to this badass spell, which is even better than a 5th level spell (Wall of Force) in most situations.

 

[Fenris-77]

Yeah, that would fall under the category of abuse, I'm not going to disagree. Given what the spell is supposed to be for it's too good at a whole range of things. That said, I might argue that we're still talking about particular kinds of players and games, and that the overall approach to the game is the actual issue. I'm not even criticizing the approach - it feels a little video-gamey to me, and I don't love what it adds (or doesn't in this case) to the narrative at the table, but if that's what the whole group likes then sure. As mentioned upstream, it's not impossible to deal with as a GM if you just want to make if feel less like an "I win" button.

Here's my thing - games happen by mutual consent between the players and the DM. If there's a part of the rules, be it a spell, a DPR combo, or whatever, that could cause problems, my first instinct as the DM would be to deal with by talking to the players and deciding what the group wants. If I suggest that I'm not interested in running a game with the uber-bunker tactical approach I would expect the group to work with that. In a group with a lot of players I don't know obviously I might have to approach that as something done more by fiat that mutual agreement, but that's par for the course. I generally try to steer away from an adversarial DM vs Players vibe to my games.

 

[tetrasodium]

Sure, a prepared spell or spellbook entry is a smaller cost than a proper spell slot, but it's still a cost. The only two class besides wizard to get tiny hut is Bard and the new Twilight Domain cleric, but we'll ignore Bard because doesn't have ritual casting.

For a Wizard, Tiny Hut is one of two free spells you're picking up at 5. That means if you're also getting Fireball you're missing out on access so many other great 3rd level spells like dispel magic, counterspell, haste, and fly. If you wait to pick it up it becomes less and less of a problem, as enemies should become more and more challenging themselves. Now, you might say "what about bonus spells via scrolls". Well, those are entirely up to the DM - you should of course include some, but they don't have to be the top tier spells. Stuff like Sleet Storm makes for great scroll finds.

For a cleric, the domain spell makes it less of an individual cost and more of a wholistic "how's the overall domain balance". Given their new stance on UA is they release strong then tune down, I wouldn't worry too much about it for now.

That might lead you to question "well how did they get a scroll or spellbook with tiny hut"... But there are two simple answers. First is that they could copy it from another player's spellbook at a cost of 75-150gp while copying some other spell or spells from that same Wizard's spellbook (which is fine). Quibbling over that amounts to "why not just rework the way a class & its features work because WotC didn't sanity check tiny hut".

Second You yourself provided that point elsewhere the other day my friend

3rd level spells are explicitly accessible in Eberron.

While you are indeed correct on that accessibility, it's not like obtaining a scroll or spellbok with tiny hut is the equivalent of a +5 holy avenger in rarity in most settings & quibbling on this second point is akin to "just remove the spell" too

@Tony Vargas @Fenris-77 The impact of rests amplifies it yes, but 4e had rest based mechanics & nonfragile tiny hut, I went over the spells wording for different versions a while back here & the key difference is that they removed the fact that the 4e tiny hut was -EXPENSIVE-. Back in 4e when tiny hut had a substantial cost, you didn't want to use it if you didn't reallllly need to & before that it was pretty much as fragile as a tent on top of the fact that resting as well as spell prep worked in such a different way Now it's free and has opportunity cost far below trivial or negligible.

 

[Fenris-77]

Adding an expensive material component back in would be a simple way to fix constant abuse, that's for sure. Mind you, expensive at one level becomes trivial at another, so getting the cost right would take some thought.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Adding an expensive material component back in would be a simple way to fix constant abuse, that's for sure. Mind you, expensive at one level becomes trivial at another, so getting the cost right would take some thought.

An expensive material component would ensure that it's only used when the spell is the most abusive or disruptive it can be.

 

[ChaosOS]

A cleric won't have Tiny Hut, it's limited to wizards and bards. So the limit on spells known will apply.

It does vary by campaign though, it depends on how easy it is to get new spells. Oddly, according to DndBeyond "Tiny Hut" is also available to eldritch knights and arcane tricksters but "Leomund's Tiny Hut" is not. I guess the name brand version is just considered more exclusive?

DndBeyond looks like it switched how it was tagging spells at some point - AT and EK spells are based strictly on Wizard. Look at the XGTE spells and how it doesn't bother listing EK/AT

 

[Oofta]

When it comes to dealing with spell like tiny hut you only have a few options.

1) Ban it. Easy to do, just say "I don't allow that spell." I do it for a handful of spells, tiny hut doesn't happen to be one of them.

2) Modify it. Giving it hit points is one option. I briefly considered saying that no attacks (melee or ranged) could affect a creature outside the hut but decided against it since I don't mind firing arrows at the bear outside camp.

3) Complain about it. You're entitled, but it doesn't solve anything. WOTC is not going to change the spell for you. I doubt anyone official ever reads these threads. To me, it's just boring after a while.

4) Figure out alternate tactics. I gave a few, most of which could be done without using any magic at all. Blocking entrances is as simple as stone or wood, poison can be alchemical and so on. I think people greatly underestimate the lengths people will go to when protecting themselves and how much they would prepare for invasion from hostile forces. People spent thousands of man hours and countless gold building castles in a never ending arms race. Assuming magic is a known part of the campaign world why wouldn't people have pre-planned counters to magic?

But there are also very simple magical counters. Dispel magic, shape stone, rock to mud. Cast Thaumaturgy and start singing "This is the song that never ends" at triple volume so they can't sleep. Heck, gather a few buddies and cast fog cloud. Either the people rush out to attack before they've recovered (which is what you want anyway) or they give you hours to build up the box o' death.