ad_hoc
(they/them)
Because if you're talking about what is going to happen in 100 years then the conversation is meaningless.
Which it is.
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D&D 2E Which is the better fantasy rpg and why: D&D 5e or Pathfinder 2e?
- Thread starter Rafael Martin
- Start date
Because if you're talking about what is going to happen in 100 years then the conversation is meaningless.
Which it is.
teitan
Legend
OFFS. OK
BryonD
Hero
In the past (especially during the 4e period) there were a lot of claims that WotC should take a strategy of making D&D more mainstream. I stated that there was a fairly fixed percentage of the overall population who would ever be willing to sit around a table and pretend to be an elf and that this number would never change.
Never say never. I was right for a long time. But never came much sooner than I expected. The needle has moved. And now I'm wrong.
I do think it has only moved a little in terms of overall numbers. If 1% would consider pretending to be an elf 10 years ago, then maybe 3% would today. (totally pulled from the air numbers
) I still don't think TTRPGs will ever become a common activity for the great majority of people. But there are still two huge positives. First, it isn't the 97% still don't play. It is that the market place has TRIPLED in size. And, again, I have no clue what the real numbers are. But the change really feels like X3 isn't unrealistic. And second, the attitude of the "other 97%" has greatly changed, as this example demonstrates. And that move from a bemused to hostile attitude to open and interested paves the way for more growth in the future.I don't think 5E gets all the credit. I strongly think with my totally awesome 20/20 hindsight that there have been significant cultural changes which have driven this move. I read articles in business journals talking about the merits of of face to face RPGs and discussing how people have been benefiting for decades. It clearly isn't just "hey this new game is suddenly awesome", people are genuinely enthusiastic about the concepts and foundations of the hobby. But 5E truly nailed being the right game at the right time and I don't doubt for one second that this mainstream appeal game has created a 1+1 = 3 result.
With due respect, I think this is a perspective that only an experienced (dare I say jaded?) gamer would have. To a brand-new player, there is no "hidebound" or "exciting and distinctive." It's all exciting and distinctive, because it's all new. And brand-new players are where 5E is getting a lot of its success from.
Imaro
Legend
I do find your statement about laziness and what Paizo would never do rather ironic since Paizo for all intents and purposes reprinted 3.5 with minor changes as Pathfinder...
Sacrosanct
Legend
In the past (especially during the 4e period) there were a lot of claims that WotC should take a strategy of making D&D more mainstream. I stated that there was a fairly fixed percentage of the overall population who would ever be willing to sit around a table and pretend to be an elf and that this number would never change.
Never say never. I was right for a long time. But never came much sooner than I expected. The needle has moved. And now I'm wrong.
I do think it has only moved a little in terms of overall numbers. If 1% would consider pretending to be an elf 10 years ago, then maybe 3% would today. (totally pulled from the air numbers
I don't think 5E gets all the credit. I strongly think with my totally awesome 20/20 hindsight that there have been significant cultural changes which have driven this move. I read articles in business journals talking about the merits of of face to face RPGs and discussing how people have been benefiting for decades. It clearly isn't just "hey this new game is suddenly awesome", people are genuinely enthusiastic about the concepts and foundations of the hobby. But 5E truly nailed being the right game at the right time and I don't doubt for one second that this mainstream appeal game has created a 1+1 = 3 result.
While I agree 5e doesn't get all the credit, I can't think of why it doesn't get the overwhelming amount. Why? Because what else has shifted in pop culture all the sudden to make a lot of people play D&D? We saw D&D (and the fantasy genre in general) spike in pop culture long before 5e came out, but it didn't result in more people playing D&D. We didn't see this spike until 5e did come out. Seems like the only correlated factor in amount of gamers is the release of 5e.
The following had a big impact in the increase of fantasy/geek in our pop culture becoming more mainstream, and look at when they came out when the fantasy/D&D reference was made:
LoTR: 2000-2003
Big Bang Theory: 2007 (peppered with D&D references for 12 years)
Harry Potter: 2001
Freaks and Geeks: 2000
Community: 2010
IT Crowd: 2010
News Radio: 1998
SuperHero Movies: 2000 (with X Men, then Iron Man in 2008 really kicked it off)
Surely D&D's popularity in pop culture isn't tied solely to Stranger Things, because it's been in popular media long before that. Not to mention Stranger Things came out 2 years after 5e's official release, so 5e was already soaring by then. So what happened, all of the sudden in 2014? If 5e doesn't get credit, what does?
dave2008
Legend
Though I basically agree, you could argue that all those factors you mentioned built-up a lot of fantasy-RPG "pressure" that was released with the pin-prick of 5e. From that perspective, 5e was simply the catalyst for the flood. The real work was in building up the pressure. Not saying I agree with that perspective, but it seems reasonable.
BookBarbarian
Expert Long Rester
I think the rise of streaming with Critical Role and the like has had something to do with it too. Of course CR switched from PF to 5e when they started airing their sessions.
BryonD
Hero
I don't want to veer into violent agreement.
5E is clearly a strong mainstream game. But, as the post I quoted observes, people NOT playing the game have become far more accepting of it. The tidal wave of cultural acceptance is overwhelmingly populated by people who are now "accepting" but still not actually "playing". But once you have that acceptance people who likely would have become gamers decades ago in a more conducive culture, have a better path to actually getting into the hobby.
I honestly think that it is more correct to say that the changes in the culture informed how 5E came together than the other way around. Quite simply, 5E didn't change people who don't know anything about 5E and have never come close to actually playing it. And yet those people are very much changed.
You can draw a path from the culture changing to more players very easily. It is not at all easily to draw a path from a new game to changing non-players all over the place.
And the designers took the opportunity with this new environment and KILLED IT. They hit a home run.
1+1 = 3 They get a ton of credit. But 5E itself didn't change those ESPN jocks.
ad_hoc
(they/them)
Here are what I think are the 2 most important factors:
#1 Word of Mouth - The game is fun, intuitive, and social. People get introduced to it. Those people then go run their own games and so on.
#2 Inclusivity - The game welcomes people who aren't white, straight, and men. I read a statistic at one point that estimated before 5e that the split was 80/20 men to women and now it is 60/40. I can't remember the source but that sounds entirely reasonable to me. It might even be closer to 50/50 at this point since that was a while ago. Non-men obviously make up a huge amount of the population and including them will increase the amount of players greatly.
Both of these factors are entirely game dependent.
There are other minor factors too such as streaming games, pop culture appearances, luck, etc. I think those are all minor. It doesn't matter how much exposure the game gets if people don't want to play it. If D&D was like 3e or 4e right now it just wouldn't be popular like this, even with the rise of streaming.
#1 Word of Mouth - The game is fun, intuitive, and social. People get introduced to it. Those people then go run their own games and so on.
#2 Inclusivity - The game welcomes people who aren't white, straight, and men. I read a statistic at one point that estimated before 5e that the split was 80/20 men to women and now it is 60/40. I can't remember the source but that sounds entirely reasonable to me. It might even be closer to 50/50 at this point since that was a while ago. Non-men obviously make up a huge amount of the population and including them will increase the amount of players greatly.
Both of these factors are entirely game dependent.
There are other minor factors too such as streaming games, pop culture appearances, luck, etc. I think those are all minor. It doesn't matter how much exposure the game gets if people don't want to play it. If D&D was like 3e or 4e right now it just wouldn't be popular like this, even with the rise of streaming.
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