Magic In A Vaguely Realistic "Real World"

[doctorbadwolf]

They’re a way, like any gem, of holding (or demonstrating) wealth in a portable- and concealable- form that can accrue value. The ability to own them- and similar forms of wealth- is an economically measurable positive effect.

And restrictions on ownership would be a measurable negative. (Especially with a death penalty involved.)

Why does it matter if one gemstone is prohibited if others are allowed? Because their relative values are not in lockstep, but vary independently of each other. That distorts the market and can make or break fortunes. Example: in 1967, a 1carat flawless, D grade, round brilliant cut diamond was worth $1000. For the same amount of money, you could buy a ton of blue chalcedony. Thirty years later, that diamond was worth $16k. The ton of blue chalcedony, OTOH, was worth over $1M.

If, arguendo, the price of pearls skyrocketed in comparison to other gems or commodities, only those with permission to own them would see the benefit. That’s the definition of an artificial source of income inequality.




I was simply making a point about human societies in general.

But even free societies have their....quirks. At the risk of being too political, in the USA, 7 states bar atheists from holding public office. Ignoring all the RW politics and legality, simply substitute “magic user” for ”atheist” in this thread’s version of the USA, and you see how this hypothetical COULD shape up, even here.


The devil is always in the details, though. If mind control magic is relatively simple- or at least not outright impossible- in this setting, it can be used to sway the vote.



If the ability to perform magic is randomly distributed, there is no reason for this to be true.

If “The Gift” is associated with other known human attributes, that will affect the odds depending on what it’s associated with- eye color? Hair color? Ethnicity? Left or right handedness? Musical talent? Genius? Some genetic defect?

Your level of infestation with symbiotic critters like...”manachlorians”?

That all does help determine how things play out.

So, some answers for the world in question.

There is no Gift. You can learn magic. It’s a variety of skills. As with all skills, talent=work+time, more or less.

Genuine Mind control is impossible, as far as anyone knows. There is “beguiling” magic, but it’s mostly illusions and glamours like, “make yourself hard to notice as long as you don’t do anything to stand out” or “encourage mundanes to use their natural pattern forming behavior to reinterpret you weird features as just an odd looking human”, and the like.

Banning magic once it’s prevalent would be like banning electricity. Sure, it can happen, and it probably will in the games of people who want to explore the question of whether it’s okay to interfere with other societies, or explore stories of coming from a place where magic is homicidally stigmatized and finding yourself now in a place that embraces it. Mostly, though, it ain’t gonna happen in 90% of societies.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As with all skills, talent=work+time, more or less.

That’s not actually how skills work, though. Talent goes on the other side of the equation. Substituting “practice“ for the time & effort you put into something, it’s mire like:

Skill = Talent + Practice

I have a talent for music- voice and stringed instruments in particular. I learn things in both very quickly with minimal effort. But I’m not a professional at either precisely because I pretty much only put minimal effort Into my practice. So I’m good enough to be a big fish in a small pond and impress some people, but I’ll never reach my full potential. I’ll never be a pro, just a dabbler.

My father? He sings in the spaces between the piano keys. You later your pitch to match him, and he meanders to a different pitch. He will never improve as a musician, regardless of practice time.

In the context of the game world, that would mean that a magically talented person who doesn't practice much (a ”natural”) might find his equal in someone who really puts in intense practice time (a “grinder“).

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Banning magic once it’s prevalent would be like banning electricity. Sure, it can happen, and it probably will in the games of people who want to explore the question of whether it’s okay to interfere with other societies, or explore stories of coming from a place where magic is homicidally stigmatized and finding yourself now in a place that embraces it. Mostly, though, it ain’t gonna happen in 90% of societies.

Italics mine. I especially like the last sentence. Nothing conjectural - good, hard statistics.

It seems – from my pedestrian perspective – that you already have a vision of how you want this world to be – which is what all of us do, of course, so I can’t fault that. But I feel obligated to restate this, as I'm not communicating what seems to me the most important factor in this emergent magical society of yours. That is the reaction of human beings to this phenomenon. Humans react within the context of worldviews and constructs with which they are already familiar. Magic has to be incorporated into or reconciled with an existing paradigm.

Now, you can handwave this magical reality into an egalitarian, populist movement, as unstoppable as some kind of ideal bitcoin. But I don’t think that’s how the world works.

1. Can magic be weaponized?

2. Can it be leveraged for political and economic advantage?

3. Does it represent a threat to existing power structures?

These are the germane questions.

In this world – our world – there would be an evangelical backlash in America the likes of which we can only imagine: the end times really are upon us. Seriously: how do you think the Southern Baptist Convention would react – dogmatically – to the emergence of magic? And other evangelical movements? How do you think that would ripple through American politics? If 1% to 2% of the population are magically endowed how would the Southern Baptist Convention rationalize this?; clue – the LGBT population is estimated at 4.5%

Sorcery is forbidden by Sharia on pain of death. Currently, fifteen countries adhere – to one degree or another – to Sharia.

In China, the government would be harvesting pineal glands from Tibetan monks for research.

In short, I think the world sucks more than you admit.


Merry Christmas.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Italics mine. I especially like the last sentence. Nothing conjectural - good, hard statistics.

It seems – from my pedestrian perspective – that you already have a vision of how you want this world to be – which is what all of us do, of course, so I can’t fault that. But I feel obligated to restate this, as I'm not communicating what seems to me the most important factor in this emergent magical society of yours. That is the reaction of human beings to this phenomenon. Humans react within the context of worldviews and constructs with which they are already familiar. Magic has to be incorporated into or reconciled with an existing paradigm.

Now, you can handwave this magical reality into an egalitarian, populist movement, as unstoppable as some kind of ideal bitcoin. But I don’t think that’s how the world works.

1. Can magic be weaponized?

2. Can it be leveraged for political and economic advantage?

3. Does it represent a threat to existing power structures?

These are the germane questions.

In this world – our world – there would be an evangelical backlash in America the likes of which we can only imagine: the end times really are upon us. Seriously: how do you think the Southern Baptist Convention would react – dogmatically – to the emergence of magic? And other evangelical movements? How do you think that would ripple through American politics? If 1% to 2% of the population are magically endowed how would the Southern Baptist Convention rationalize this?; clue – the LGBT population is estimated at 4.5%

Sorcery is forbidden by Sharia on pain of death. Currently, fifteen countries adhere – to one degree or another – to Sharia.

In China, the government would be harvesting pineal glands from Tibetan monks for research.

In short, I think the world sucks more than you admit.


Merry Christmas.

I think you overestimate the power that ideological fringe groups have in modern democratic society.

Heck, just look at the LGBT movement, which you mentioned. Things certainly aren't perfect. We definitely have a ways to go. But society as a whole is moving towards acceptance and equality. And that's given that the LGBT movement is made up of people who are the same as any of us. Imagine if they had the power to end the threat of climate change while reducing your electric bill to zero (magi-tech solar panels)? I strongly suspect that we'd be at effectively complete acceptance and equality by now (or at least as close as possible in the real world - haters gonna hate).

Yeah , there are totalitarian regimes where things would be much worse for the Wise. That doesn't mean it would be worse everywhere. And those regimes would be shooting themselves in the foot in the long term.

You might see a few lynch mobs early on, but when the government comes down hard on them, you'd suddenly see a lot less. Because the US government doesn't typically tolerate folks taking the law into their own hands. There are certainly people who delude themselves into believing that the most vile of acts are justified and good. But there are a lot more folk who believe in the rule of law (some of them are even genuinely good people). And of the deluded folk, most aren't so far gone that they want to spend the rest of their days rotting in a cell (or dead) for their beliefs.

Every year we have a number of horrific tragedies caused by hateful people. But for every one such as them there are probably hundreds with hate in their hearts who have enough fear or sense not to act on it. And for each of those hundreds of hateful people there are thousands of decent people who are happy to live and let live, to let others live their lives as they see fit. That's the majority. And if you can provide that majority with something that makes their lives better or more enjoyable, then you have a societal force to be reckoned with. Anything that threatens that comfort becomes a call to action. And that's a powerful thing.

Happy Holidays!

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

The near-100% efficiency solar panel was an exemple stated by the OP in reference to powering a warp drive, to illustrate that magic and technology could mesh. I don't think it was a way to state that this is the power level expected of the magic in his setting. Another example by the OP was that you could produce light in the absence of lightbulb. OK, if I was offered a 75 hours course on magical lighting, with the proviso that applying it would be tiring, I'd give it a pass. The situations where I am in need of light and there is none (fuse to be changed?) is so uncommon that it doesn't warrant the effort to learn such magic. If magic isn't the gamechanger some envision in this thread, the reaction would be different (both from the general population and the law)

On the other extreme of the spectrum, the OP stated that aeromancy could be used to deflect bullets. This is very different from bulletproof vests (which protects the user, but don't make him totally ignore bullets). Such knowledge would be a boon for terrorists while, as the OP mentionned, government still don't think magic is real: the terrorists could do mass shootings without being stopped by law-enforcement officer because they wouldn't think of stopping using their guns and deal with the rifle-toting terrorist by walking toward him to engage in hand-to-hand combat before being shot (and if well-prepared, most terrorists could probably flee the scene afterwards thank to illusion magic (to conceal their face, or do their shooting using the face of someone else) allowing them to disappear easily (noone will be looking for illusions). Now, imagine if the first public uses of magic are in widespread terror attacks (typically an event that would draw mass media attention). What would be the general public reaction about the "knowledge disseminated by terrorists"? What would be their reaction once it is explained the knowledge comes from a non-human fey kingdom (whether it's real or not)? Don't you think the reaction would be negative? Don't you think people would want to ban this knowledge? Don't you think any liberal politician saying "it's just an unfortunate drawback, we can't pass the opportunity to disseminate magic" would be listened to? What if Aeromancy can be used to temporarily suppress the buoyancy of a landing plane? I am betting on the fey kingdom being put on the Axis of Evil and Desert Stormed quite quickly. The counter would be for magic to appear as normal as quickly as possible, probably through a conscious effort among magic users to reveal themselves, explain how magic work and expect regulations can be taken to incorporate the skill to regular live (with some skills being restricted to law enforcement) before some dramatic event takes place. But ultra-quick spread of the knowledge of magic was given a nope by the OP, so I think the risk of a turn for the worse has increased.

Happy Holidays nonetheless!

 

[Fanaelialae]

The near-100% efficiency solar panel was an exemple stated by the OP in reference to powering a warp drive, to illustrate that magic and technology could mesh. I don't think it was a way to state that this is the power level expected of the magic in his setting. Another example by the OP was that you could produce light in the absence of lightbulb. OK, if I was offered a 75 hours course on magical lighting, with the proviso that applying it would be tiring, I'd give it a pass. The situations where I am in need of light and there is none (fuse to be changed?) is so uncommon that it doesn't warrant the effort to learn such magic. If magic isn't the gamechanger some envision in this thread, the reaction would be different (both from the general population and the law)

You are mistaken.

snip ...better conversion between energy types also means a square foot of solar panel also gets exponentially more electricity into the system.

Power alone would make it hard to ban magic and succeed as a state... snip

Magi-tech solar panels would indeed be a thing per the OP.

On the other extreme of the spectrum, the OP stated that aeromancy could be used to deflect bullets. Such knowledge would be a boon for terrorists while, as the OP mentionned, government still don't think magic is real: the terrorists could do mass shootings without being stopped by law-enforcement officer because they wouldn't think of stopping using their guns and deal with the rifle-toting terrorist by walking toward him to engage in hand-to-hand combat before being shot (and if well-prepared, most terrorists could probably flee the scene afterwards thank to illusion magic (to conceal their face, or do their shooting using the face of someone else) allowing them to disappear easily (noone will be looking for illusions). Now, imagine if the first public uses of magic are in widespread terror attacks (typically an event that would draw mass media attention). What would be the general public reaction about the "knowledge disseminated by terrorists"? What would be their reaction once it is explained the knowledge comes from a non-human fey kingdom (whether it's real or not)? Don't you think the reaction would be negative? Don't you think people would want to ban this knowledge? Don't you think any liberal politician saying "it's just an unfortunate drawback, we can't pass the opportunity to disseminate magic" would be listened to? What if Aeromancy can be used to temporarily suppress the buoyancy of a landing plane? I am betting on the fey kingdom being put on the Axis of Evil and Desert Stormed quite quickly. The counter would be for magic to appear as normal as quickly as possible, probably through a conscious effort among magic users to reveal themselves, explain how magic work and expect regulations can be taken to incorporate the skill to regular live (with some skills being restricted to law enforcement) before some dramatic event takes place. But ultra-quick spread of the knowledge of magic was given a nope by the OP, so I think the risk of a turn for the worse has increased.

Happy Holidays nonetheless!

That's really a worst case scenario. Additionally, by my reading, of the OP, magic can make it harder for a bullet to hit you (the magic can force the bullet slightly off course). It doesn't make you immune, meaning the gunman would almost certainly still die or be captured (how many mass shooters in recent times have gotten away with it).

What's the ratio of mass shooters to engineers in the world? I strongly suspect that the numbers heavily favor engineers. By a large margin. Meaning that, simply looking at the odds, it's way more likely that an engineer creates something useful with magic that that some nutjob causes a tragedy with it.

Plus, at the end of the day, it would be like banning cars because they can be used for vehicular homicide, or because car bombs exist. The vast majority of people use cars responsibly (or at least semi-responsibly). Banning cars because a rare few will use them for terrible acts is flat out illogical. You might save a few lives. But others will be lost because people with a medical emergency couldn't get to the hospital in time. And the cost in economic terms would be utterly catastrophic, with the many people unable to get to their place of employment. It simply wouldn't make sense.

Happy Holidays to you as well!

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

You are mistaken.
Magi-tech solar panels would indeed be a thing per the OP.

You're right. I hadn't seen it reiterated. Then, the prospect of (nearly) unlimited free energy would quickly make the world very dissimilar (post-scarcity) to ours due to plummeting manufacturing and transportation costs.

Plus, at the end of the day, it would be like banning cars because they can be used for vehicular homicide, or because car bombs exist. The vast majority of people use cars responsibly (or at least semi-responsibly). Banning cars because a rare few will use them for terrible acts is flat out illogical.

Despite that, most countries around the world ban guns, while the exact same argument is made about guns (most people use them responsibly, only a rare few will use them badly). The difference is that cars are valuable for the economy, while guns are not. I was writing from the perpsective of lower-power magic than the OP intended. If magic = free (and I suppose clean) energy, then there is no way anyone would give it a pass.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Italics mine. I especially like the last sentence. Nothing conjectural - good, hard statistics.

It seems – from my pedestrian perspective – that you already have a vision of how you want this world to be – which is what all of us do, of course, so I can’t fault that. But I feel obligated to restate this, as I'm not communicating what seems to me the most important factor in this emergent magical society of yours. That is the reaction of human beings to this phenomenon. Humans react within the context of worldviews and constructs with which they are already familiar. Magic has to be incorporated into or reconciled with an existing paradigm.

Now, you can handwave this magical reality into an egalitarian, populist movement, as unstoppable as some kind of ideal bitcoin. But I don’t think that’s how the world works.

1. Can magic be weaponized?

2. Can it be leveraged for political and economic advantage?

3. Does it represent a threat to existing power structures?

These are the germane questions.

In this world – our world – there would be an evangelical backlash in America the likes of which we can only imagine: the end times really are upon us. Seriously: how do you think the Southern Baptist Convention would react – dogmatically – to the emergence of magic? And other evangelical movements? How do you think that would ripple through American politics? If 1% to 2% of the population are magically endowed how would the Southern Baptist Convention rationalize this?; clue – the LGBT population is estimated at 4.5%

Sorcery is forbidden by Sharia on pain of death. Currently, fifteen countries adhere – to one degree or another – to Sharia.

In China, the government would be harvesting pineal glands from Tibetan monks for research.

In short, I think the world sucks more than you admit.


Merry Christmas.

I’m not interested in this sort of misanthropic pessimism, tbh.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think you overestimate the power that ideological fringe groups have in modern democratic society.

Heck, just look at the LGBT movement, which you mentioned. Things certainly aren't perfect. We definitely have a ways to go. But society as a whole is moving towards acceptance and equality. And that's given that the LGBT movement is made up of people who are the same as any of us. Imagine if they had the power to end the threat of climate change while reducing your electric bill to zero (magi-tech solar panels)? I strongly suspect that we'd be at effectively complete acceptance and equality by now (or at least as close as possible in the real world - haters gonna hate).

Yeah , there are totalitarian regimes where things would be much worse for the Wise. That doesn't mean it would be worse everywhere. And those regimes would be shooting themselves in the foot in the long term.

You might see a few lynch mobs early on, but when the government comes down hard on them, you'd suddenly see a lot less. Because the US government doesn't typically tolerate folks taking the law into their own hands. There are certainly people who delude themselves into believing that the most vile of acts are justified and good. But there are a lot more folk who believe in the rule of law (some of them are even genuinely good people). And of the deluded folk, most aren't so far gone that they want to spend the rest of their days rotting in a cell (or dead) for their beliefs.

Every year we have a number of horrific tragedies caused by hateful people. But for every one such as them there are probably hundreds with hate in their hearts who have enough fear or sense not to act on it. And for each of those hundreds of hateful people there are thousands of decent people who are happy to live and let live, to let others live their lives as they see fit. That's the majority. And if you can provide that majority with something that makes their lives better or more enjoyable, then you have a societal force to be reckoned with. Anything that threatens that comfort becomes a call to action. And that's a powerful thing.

Happy Holidays!

As well, you have highly experienced people going around smoothing over problems and making sure monsters are dealt with either away from the public eye, or in a way that makes it clear that magic and the Hidden Folk are on the same side as the average mundane human. (The Rangers I mentioned a few times before)

Also, again, anyone who is willing to put in the effort can learn.

@Dannyalcatraz I obviously don’t know your dad, but I do know that no person I’ve ever met who puts in the effort has ever failed to learn to sing competently. They might not have a natural pleasant voice or good ear, but being able to sing competently is absolutely work plus time.

I didn’t think about it, but I should have made it explicitly clear when I said that it’s a skill anyone can learn that a premise of the setting is that exceptionalism is largely a myth.

Now, there are magics that ARE harder to learn if you aren’t naturally gifted, like the ability to speak to spirits or channel divine blessings, but the physical magics hit the world a bit ahead of those.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

@Dannyalcatraz I obviously don’t know your dad, but I do know that no person I’ve ever met who puts in the effort has ever failed to learn to sing competently. They might not have a natural pleasant voice or good ear, but being able to sing competently is absolutely work plus time.

There is a condition called amusia- which can be congenital or acquired- that prevents a person from processing pitch like normal people. Think of it like color blindness- no matter how much they try, people with that condition can’t see certain colors. Similarly, amusics simply don’t perceive changes in pitch the same way. Some can’t distinguish between songs.

In serious cases, those who acquire amusia can even lose the ability to play an instrument or read music.