Pathfinder 2E Rate Pathfinder 2E

[dave2008]

I understood what you sad and i agree with your point on AO.

What i am trying to say is this, I played D&D, AD&D , 3.5 , 4E and PF1 and 5E since 1989 (i have 39 year old).

All of thoose systens had major problems , like been to simplistic , extremily unbalaced , to rigid , to strange (4E).

Now i am playing PF2e and i cant see any problems , the game runs smothly in every single aspect. The martial classes are extreme powerfull in dealing damage and moviment in combat but with distinct characteristics betwen them. The spellcasters are ultra diversity (you can build them in any way : damage , control , buff ... a mixture all of them if you want) without been umbalanced (3,5 or PF1). Since my group started age of ashes we did not have any discussion about rules, everything apears so simple and at the same time extremily unique and diverse. This is just my opinion. Sorry if i ofended someone , but for me all other systens seens vastly inferior compared to PF2.

Sorry for my bad english
Greetings from Brasil.

First, I don't think your offending anyone. Second, I want to emphasis that I haven't had a chance to play PF2e yet (can't find a group), so I reserve any final judgment until I can play. However, from reading the rules and these forums I can see that it is probably not a superior system for my group and probably not for me (I'm more crunch oriented than my group). Here are some of my issues with PF2e off the top of my head:

1. Hit points poorly defined (problem with all versions of D&D, but I have simple solution for 5e - not sure if it works in PF2e)
2. Armor doesn't provide DR to some degree (problem with all versions of D&D, but I have simple solution for 5e - not sure if it works in PF2e)
3. Shield rule
4. Iterative attacks
5. Too many small feats
6. Too balanced / math too tight
7. Too many character options (problem with modern versions of D&D, but it is worse in PF2e)
8. Everything too interconnected, hard to understand how my homebrew will play out (could be solved with more system mastery)
9. Monsters, no solo/boss monster tricks beside be +4 levels (I can also adpot 5e rules for this though, so that is why it is low on the list).
10. +10/-10 crit/fumble
11. Golarian: I despise baked in settings. I also run homebrew worlds, so I really don't like books that talk to me in a pre-determined setting. But it is fortunately easy to ignore.

I'm sure there are more, but after my initial excitement for the game I really haven't paid much attention or read the rules in the last few months.

 

[dave2008]

And Golarion is the best fantasy setting of all time... Just my opinion.
Praise Sarenrae the Dawnflower.

OH, I forgot one - I hate baked in settings. I will add it to the list.

 

[kayman]

First, I don't think your offending anyone. Second, I want to emphasis that I haven't had a chance to play PF2e yet (can't find a group), so I reserve any final judgment until I can play. However, from reading the rules and these forums I can see that it is probably not a superior system for my group and probably not for me (I'm more crunch oriented than my group). Here are some of my issues with PF2e off the top of my head:

1. Hit points poorly defined (problem with all versions of D&D, but I have simple solution for 5e - not sure if it works in PF2e)
2. Armor doesn't provide DR to some degree (problem with all versions of D&D, but I have simple solution for 5e - not sure if it works in PF2e)
3. Shield rule
4. Iterative attacks
5. Too many small feats
6. Too balanced / math too tight
7. Too many character options (problem with modern versions of D&D, but it is worse in PF2e)
8. Everything too interconnected, hard to understand how my homebrew will play out (could be solved with more system mastery)
9. Monsters, no solo/boss monster tricks beside be +4 levels (I can also adpot 5e rules for this though, so that is why it is low on the list).
10. +10/-10 crit/fumble
11. Golarian: I despise backed in settings. I also run homebrew worlds, so I really don't like books that talk to me in a pre-determined setting. But it is fortunately easy to ignore.

I'm sure there are more, but after my initial excitement for the game I really haven't paid much attention or read the rules in the last few months.

1 - I agree , but this is a problem like you said, with all D&D/PF games.

2 and 3- True but shield does... And here we desagree , I love the shield rule.

5 - If you want to simulate the real world this is the way to go ... Diversity , every enemy hero etc must have a distinctive characteristic.

6 - Balanced in a good way... Preserving the diversity of all characters

7 - Like i said ... the world is complex and full of diversity.

9 - I never liked this idea of Solo/Boss.

10 - I love that rule

 

[dave2008]

1 - I agree , but this is a problem like you said, with all D&D/PF games.

Yes, but that is why it can't be the climax for me.

2 and 3- True but shield does... And here we desagree , I love the shield rule.

Just to high a cost to me, just isn't realistic IMO.

5 - If you want to simulate the real world this is the way to go ... Diversity , every enemy hero etc must have a distinctive characteristic.

I want to play a fantasy game, not simulate the real world. I prefer a few larger choices than a bunch of tiny ones. To be clear, I like it from a game design concept, just not an actual play viewpoint.

6 - Balanced in a good way... Preserving that diversity of all characters

In general, I don't like mechanically balanced games - there is no good way. Again, I understand it from a game design perspective, it just feels wrong and makes it feel like a "game" and not a "world" RL is not balanced and I have a hard time immersing myself in a game that is. Though it does make it easy to play.

9 - I never liked this idea of Solo/Boss.

I do. I want my dragon to special, not just a +4 level monster.

10 - I love that rule

I guessed you would. It is ok for us to have a difference of opinion. You can think PF2e is the greatest game ever and I can think it is just another game. You can like thinks I dislike and vice-versa, as you said: "... the world is complex and full of diversity."

 

[BryonD]

6 - Balanced in a good way... Preserving the diversity of all characters

7 - Like i said ... the world is complex and full of diversity.

Everything is relative. Compared to Chess, PF2E rocks on this front. Compared to a lot of other RPGs it falls terribly flat.

Being able to describe differences on top of the same math is not at all the same as having math that looks at the narrative elements of the set pieces and uses a reasonably consistent system to determine what that math should be. And if balance gets lost in telling the story well, then so be it. The first, second, third, and fourth most important things in an RPG experience, to me, is being that character in that world.

If I ask you to tell me the odds of one character hitting another character with a stick, and you get to ask me one question, the right question fro PF2E is "what is the level difference between the two characters?". It matters if the character with the stick is Conan or Raistlin. But not as much as the level difference matters. The mechanical diversity between Conan and Raistlin is as marginalized as an RPG can marginalize it. The math for every feature of these two characters is defined in dominating fashion by level and then it gets tweaked a little in the direction of narrative, but onyl within tight constraints demanded by the math.

The diversity found between the covers of the PF2E book is terribly limited. Just because you choose to describe things differently doesn't change anything. The players can being their imagination to ANY game at any table. The mechanics don't get credit for the players contribution.

 

[kayman]

I ask you to tell me the odds of one character hitting another character with a stick, and you get to ask me one question, the right question fro PF2E is "what is the level difference between the two characters?". It matters if the character with the stick is Conan or Raistlin. But not as much as the level difference matters. The mechanical diversity between Conan and Raistlin is as marginalized as an RPG can marginalize it. The math for every feature of these two characters is defined in dominating fashion by level and then it gets tweaked a little in the direction of narrative, but onyl within tight constraints demanded by the math.

Well... every RPG is based in math.
Your exemple.
conan 20 level fighter.
Legendary with Stick to hit 20 + 8 legendary + 8 (strength) = 36
( I could add more bonus, but lets keep this simple)
Raistlin level 20 wizard
Trained with stick 20 + 2 trained - 4 ( if i remember raistlin was very sick) =18
Só there is a 18 points of diference .... for me this ok with the history of the two iconics characters.

 

[BryonD]

I totally accept that it is ok for you.

But do you recognize that you actually dodged my question?

 

[BryonD]

And, to be clear, every system has math.
Some systems systems start with the math and then back into doing th best they can to fit the narrative. Some system have a loose math foundation and then look to the narrative to see how that math should emerge.

Your example forced you to go all the way to L20 to even try. It may be good enough for you, but it is not in the ballpark of good enough for me. And it gets way worse at say L5 where a lot more gameplay happens.

Again, it is totally cool that this works for you. But can you seriously try to say you are really looking at it from my point of view and don't see how it fails completely based on what I'm seeking?

 

[kayman]

I totally accept that it is ok for you.

But do you recognize that you actually dodged my question?

I totally accept that it is ok for you.

But do you recognize that you actually dodged my question?

And, to be clear, every system has math.
Some systems systems start with the math and then back into doing th best they can to fit the narrative. Some system have a loose math foundation and then look to the narrative to see how that math should emerge.

Your example forced you to go all the way to L20 to even try. It may be good enough for you, but it is not in the ballpark of good enough for me. And it gets way worse at say L5 where a lot more gameplay happens.

Again, it is totally cool that this works for you. But can you seriously try to say you are really looking at it from my point of view and don't see how it fails completely based on what I'm seeking?

You are wrong, in level 5 the diference is greater
Conan with a sword : to hit 5 + 6 (master) + 5 (strength) = 16.
Raistlin with a sword: To hit 0 + 0 (untrained) - 4 (strength) = -4.

I am not dodging your point. Of course narrative is the most important thing for TTRPG. This is why you must have a system that is balanced and offer diversity . balanced in a way that every classes have their potencial and flaws. A martial class must be better in some situations and a spellcarter class in other.

once again sorry for my bad english

 

[kayman]

And if we aply the first exemple with a sword the diference is astronomical.
Conan + 36
Raistlin -4

40 points of difference.