Pathfinder 2E Rate Pathfinder 2E

[kayman]

Not in my experience. Not sure if you have played Hackmaster or not, but the 3-action economy is essentially a watered down version of the system they use and i found it to be less of an impact than dis/advantage in actual play (and the Hackmaster system is even more dynamic than the PF2e system). Perhaps it seems super innovative if you haven't used something like it before, but for me it is not a revelation. That being said, that could be a reason dis/advantage is for me, as I hadn't used something like it before. Also, dis/advantage is not used in a vacuum in 5e, it is important for BA - they go hand-in-hand.

Basically it comes down to this: 3-action economy wasn't new to me, but dis/advantage was, so it is only natural which one had more of an impact on me. Our viewpoints on which is more important is biased by our experience, there is not a "correct" answer. It is subjective.

What I like about both concepts is they give rise to more possibilities to stretch them. I have already mentioned the 6-action economy, but you could expand dis/adv as well.

EDIT: Also, what is really innovative is not the 3-action economy, but that they paired it with the general removal of OA. That was the genius move that makes it interesting.

AO?

 

[dave2008]

AO?

Attacks of Opportunity, or OA (Opportunity Attacks). Basically getting rid of allowing a free/reaction attack on targets withdrawing from melee combat. In PF2e it is basically just a fighter thing (if I remember correctly). With those gone it really makes movement a viable option to use an action, Otherwise combat would likely be very static and boring. That choice is what makes the 3 action economy sing; otherwise it is functionally inferior to 5e's move, standard, bonus action system. And if you simply remove OA/AO's from 5e you get something similar to the PF2e system.

Of course there are other benefits to the 3 action economy, but those could also be handled with the 3e/4e/or 5e action economy as well. My point is the real difference is the removal of OAs, that was a stroke of genius.

 

[BryonD]

Otherwise combat would likely be very static and boring.

So I really liked the 3AE in PF2E a lot, so I did go back to Unleashed version and ended up incorporating some variation thereof into my 1E game. For us it has been really cool.

Yes, there have been times when players choose to stay put due to AOOs. And. yes, there are more AOOs overall now. But it has increased tactical options and we find that AOOs become worth the risk much more frequently now.

Obviously this is my game and YMMV. But I have all the coolness of 3AE without any of the fatal flaws of PF2E.

 

[dave2008]

So I really liked the 3AE in PF2E a lot, so I did go back to Unleashed version and ended up incorporating some variation thereof into my 1E game. For us it has been really cool.

Yes, there have been times when players choose to stay put due to AOOs. And. yes, there are more AOOs overall now. But it has increased tactical options and we find that AOOs become worth the risk much more frequently now.

Obviously this is my game and YMMV. But I have all the coolness of 3AE without any of the fatal flaws of PF2E.

We looked at implementing it in our 5e game, but based on the way we play it didn't seem to add much, if anything, that my players enjoyed. My players preferred having free movement and I didn't see any reason to rain on their fun.

 

[kayman]

So I really liked the 3AE in PF2E a lot, so I did go back to Unleashed version and ended up incorporating some variation thereof into my 1E game. For us it has been really cool.

Yes, there have been times when players choose to stay put due to AOOs. And. yes, there are more AOOs overall now. But it has increased tactical options and we find that AOOs become worth the risk much more frequently now.

Obviously this is my game and YMMV. But I have all the coolness of 3AE without any of the fatal flaws of PF2E.

what fatal flaws?

 

[dave2008]

what fatal flaws?

Don't worry, they will not be flaws for you. "Fatal flaws" tend to be personal.

Also, did you understand my point about OAs? You never responded so I wasn't sure.

 

[BryonD]

If you want to google around you can find many comments from me. Mostly in the playtest era on the Paizo boards. But that ship has sailed and there is no value in rehashing it here.

Details aside the mechanics make themselves more important than the narrative elements in ways that are unacceptable to me when compared to other options I can play.

 

[BryonD]

Don't worry, they will not be flaws for you. "Fatal flaws" tend to be personal.

Also, did you understand my point about OAs? You never responded so I wasn't sure.

Yep. I know there are people who love this "math first" approach. More power to them

 

[kayman]

Don't worry, they will not be flaws for you. "Fatal flaws" tend to be personal.

Also, did you understand my point about OAs? You never responded so I wasn't sure.

I understood what you said and i agree with your point on AO.

What i am trying to say is this, I played D&D, AD&D , 3.5 , 4E and PF1 and 5E since 1989 (i have 39 year old).

All of thoose systens had major problems , like been to simplistic , extremely unbalanced , to rigid , to strange (4E).

Now i am playing PF2e and i cant see any problems , the game runs smothly in every single aspect. The martial classes are extreme powerfull in dealing damage and moviment in combat but with distinct characteristics between them. The spellcasters are ultra diversity (you can build them in any way : damage , control , buff ... a mixture all of them if you want) without been unbalanced (3,5 or PF1). Since my group started age of ashes we did not have any discussion about rules, everything apears so simple and at the same time extremely unique and diverse. This is just my opinion. Sorry if i ofended someone , but for me all other systens seens vastly inferior compared to PF2.

Sorry for my bad english
Greetings from Brasil.

 

[kayman]

And Golarion is the best fantasy setting of all time... Just my opinion.
Praise Sarenrae the Dawnflower.