D&D 5E Countering Rest Spells (Tiny Hut, Rope Trick, et al)

[Tony Vargas]

I think this is especially true when encountering very intelligent opponents. Especially true if they have survived for centuries. They've had many attempts on their existence, almost nothing should surprise them. If the bad guy is a genius level intellect they're going to have options. Options I may not have had on my prep sheet.

Exactly. This is not a new idea in the annals of running D&D. You can model a super-human intellect by simply coming up with things that its "predicted" or otherwise prepared for, after the fact. Sure, it's analogous to author force, but so what, we don't expect to be able to fly or shift a huge boulder, ourselves, before describing a dragon doing it...

 

[Derren]

One other thought on this*, we're talking about a magical world. One of the posters complaining on the other thread talked about how a dracolich just flew around helplessly while the party rested for 8 hours.

I was thinking about this one and I gotta say, huh? If the dracolich is in their lair they have lair actions. Things they can do every 6 seconds. Options vary by dragon, in most cases the effects last until the next lair action or the dragon dies.

• Black dragon has impenetrable darkness to set up other stuff.
• Blue dragon just collapses the ceiling on the party.
• Green dragon can use grasping vines but it doesn't really say how tall they are. I'd say they spread over the dome but if they don't there's just surrounding the hut with a wall of thorns.
• Red dragon causes geysers of magma bury the hut, if not just fill the hut with magma (depends on a couple of factors depending on how you rule).
• White dragon buries the hut in shards of ice that continuously fall from the ceiling, uses a wall of ice or just obscures sight with fog.

If the dragon wasn't in their lair, why stick around to fight?

But what really bothers me is that the poster never asked how other people would deal with something like this. It was just given as an example that because they didn't come up with a counter at the time. It was fait accompli, the spell is just impossibly broken and the party can always get a long rest whenever they want.

So yes, some of my options were a bit out there. But this is a world where mods have fire giants with cauldrons of molten metal lying around at their disposal. One invisibility spell and the hut will potentially be encased in molten metal. With a lucky roll the giant might even get away with the party not knowing it's going to happen before the metal starts spreading. But of course that would be "impossible". Which if you were fighting CR 1/4 goblins it would be. Possible counters depend on the opponent and the situation.

P.S. I should have said "obscure sight" instead of "paint". Good grief, take one option overly-literally and assume that suddenly every orc on the planet is carrying a 10 gallon bucket of paint is stupid as evidence there's no possible way to counter the spell.

*Yes, I know it's a bad habit of mine

Black Dragon: Without "other stuff" the darkness is useless.
Blue Dragon: Assumes that the place can be collapsed. Also doesn't prevent the party from resting or preparing.
Green Dragon: Doesn't prevent the party from resting or even inconveniences them as the the area around the hut can be cleared from the inside.
Red Dragon: Doesn't work as the hut blocks spells.
White Dragon: Again, doesn't actually prevents the party from resting/preparing.

And of course while the dragon is doing that the archers get free shots.

Like always you just throw out random things that either don't work or don't do anything: Saying that it is easy to deal with the spell and then offer examples which do not counter the spell is not very convincing.

 

[Oofta]

Black Dragon: Without "other stuff" the darkness is useless.
Blue Dragon: Assumes that the place can be collapsed. Also doesn't prevent the party from resting or preparing.
Green Dragon: Doesn't prevent the party from resting or even inconveniences them as the the area around the hut can be cleared from the inside.
Red Dragon: Doesn't work as the hut blocks spells.
White Dragon: Again, doesn't actually prevents the party from resting/preparing.

And of course while the dragon is doing that the archers get free shots.

Like always you just throw out random things that either don't work or don't do anything: Saying that it is easy to deal with the spell and then offer examples which do not counter the spell is not very convincing.

Again the "nothing can be done, woe is me, approach".

Burying the hut under a ton of ice, rock or magma could never work. Dragons have double the distance darkvision of most PC races but have to come within range of bow attacks and stick around to be shot at. No dragon anywhere could build any additional defenses with 8 hours of prep when the PCs can't see what they're doing. No dragon has allies that can be summoned.

I'm not going through the list, let's just discuss the black dragon that can do "nothing". Do his darkness thing, fly around grabbing some decent sized trees* (or muck-soaked plants, corpses of fallen adventurers or whatever else is handy) and start burying the hut. They can see just fine in the darkness with his blindsight. Party can't see what's happening, just hear some thuds. spell ends, a couple tons of tree fall on their head unless they leave the hut to find out what's going on. Yep. Poor, poor black dragon can do absolutely nothing.

Assuming of course he doesn't just dig a trench up to or around the hut, wait for the trench to fill with water and then dig underneath the hut and use his grasping tide to pull out PCs one by one.

If the party comes out to find out what's going on, cool. He can see in the darkness, they can't so win for the dragon.

I'm not going to tell you how to run your game. It seems that you've decided an immobile hut gives the party a long rest under any circumstances with no consequences. No one can possibly give you advice or options on how to deal with it. So be it. I'd rather ask for advice when I'm not sure what to do rather than insult anyone trying to help. I'd rather have a game where monsters aren't just static piles of numbers waiting to be slain. One where they reasonably assess risks. A world where the do something other than what's listed in their stat block.

*Carrying capacity is strength times 15 times 4 for huge creatures. All dragons can carry quite a bit more than 1,000 pounds. I've always ruled that if you can carry it you can fly.

 

[Maxperson]

Again the "nothing can be done, woe is me, approach".

Burying the hut under a ton of ice, rock or magma could never work. Dragons have double the distance darkvision of most PC races but have to come within range of bow attacks and stick around to be shot at. No dragon anywhere could build any additional defenses with 8 hours of prep when the PCs can't see what they're doing.

There's not much even a dragon can do in 8 hours. It's not as if they have a Home Depot right around the corner to go buy stuff at.

No dragon has allies that can be summoned.

Right. A proud dragon is going to run to his allies to whine about being unable to handle these mean adventurers and their low level spell. That's a good way to get those allies to start eyeing the dragon and its horde as something to be plucked.

I'm not going through the list, let's just discuss the black dragon that can do "nothing". Do his darkness thing, fly around grabbing some decent sized trees* (or muck-soaked plants, corpses of fallen adventurers or whatever else is handy) and start burying the hut. They can see just fine in the darkness with his blindsight. Party can't see what's happening, just hear some thuds. spell ends, a couple tons of tree fall on their head unless they leave the hut to find out what's going on. Yep. Poor, poor black dragon can do absolutely nothing.

If you're fighting a dragon like that, the party has more resources than a hut to bring to bear, including alternative ways out. Also, that many trees being supported by a force dome would more likely just create a hollow inside of a bunch of trees than fall on the party and crush them. Why do you assume that a dragon isn't stupid, but the PCs are and will just ignore the thuds and not assume that bad stuff will happen when the spell ends? The PCs are going to act to counter it, even if they don't know exactly what it is.

Assuming of course he doesn't just dig a trench up to or around the hut, wait for the trench to fill with water and then dig underneath the hut and use his grasping tide to pull out PCs one by one.

Assuming the DM doesn't go with the official ruling and say the dome has a floor, and assuming that the PCs don't make the save, and assuming that they don't kill the dragon when it shows up under the hut in the first place, and assuming they don't block the hole, and...

You assume a lot.

If the party comes out to find out what's going on, cool. He can see in the darkness, they can't so win for the dragon.

Again, you assume a party of idiots. In my experience, the players rarely play so stupidly. If they do, they didn't survive to be fighting dragons in the first place.

 

[Oofta]

There's not much even a dragon can do in 8 hours. It's not as if they have a Home Depot right around the corner to go buy stuff at.



Right. A proud dragon is going to run to his allies to whine about being unable to handle these mean adventurers and their low level spell. That's a good way to get those allies to start eyeing the dragon and its horde as something to be plucked.



If you're fighting a dragon like that, the party has more resources than a hut to bring to bear, including alternative ways out. Also, that many trees being supported by a force dome would more likely just create a hollow inside of a bunch of trees than fall on the party and crush them. Why do you assume that a dragon isn't stupid, but the PCs are and will just ignore the thuds and not assume that bad stuff will happen when the spell ends? The PCs are going to act to counter it, even if they don't know exactly what it is.



Assuming the DM doesn't go with the official ruling and say the dome has a floor, and assuming that the PCs don't make the save, and assuming that they don't kill the dragon when it shows up under the hut in the first place, and assuming they don't block the hole, and..
So the party comes out to find out what the thudding sound is they interrupt their long rest or start a fight. Job done. Except they don't do that because they aren't idiots.

Trees, debris, rocks that have accumulated for a few hours on top of the hut cause no issue when the spell expires because they're piled up neatly like jenga sticks. When the dragon can carry well more than a thousand pounds of stuff every time he drops something off.

If the dome has a floor*, it doesn't change the tons of material piled on top. Or dragon with several hours to dig around and under the dome sinks it to the bottom of the new pond the dragon made.


*I don't consider tweets official.
.

You assume a lot.



Again, you assume a party of idiots. In my experience, the players rarely play so stupidly. If they do, they didn't survive to be fighting dragons in the first place.

So the party comes out to find out what the thudding sound is they interrupt their long rest to clear debris or start a fight. Job done. Except they don't do that because they aren't idiots and don't fight the dragon in the darkness. Except that they do because the darkness lasts until the next lair action. Except they don't ... my head hurts.

Trees, debris, rocks that have accumulated for a few hours on top of the hut cause no issue when the spell expires because they're piled up neatly like jenga sticks. When the dragon can carry well more than a thousand pounds of stuff every time he drops something off. Several tons of debris is never going to crumple in. But even if it didn't (I don't see how), the party is now entombed. Sounds like a fun challenge for the group or TPK depending on how you run it.

If the dome has a floor*, it doesn't change the tons of material piled on top. Or dragon with several hours to dig around and under the dome sinks it to the bottom of the new pond the they made.

Oh, and dragons never, ever have allies or additional minions that the party hasn't already killed off.

So you've also decided that dragons are completely helpless in the face of a temporary shelter. Your choice I guess.

*I don't consider tweets official.

 

[Maxperson]

So the party comes out to find out what the thudding sound is they interrupt their long rest to clear debris or start a fight. Job done. Except they don't do that because they aren't idiots and don't fight the dragon in the darkness. Except that they do because the darkness lasts until the next lair action. Except they don't ... my head hurts.

If you stop thinking of the players as idiots, it gets easier. They don't just walk out. They are fighting powerful dragons, so they have other ways to both see out and get out.

Trees, debris, rocks that have accumulated for a few hours on top of the hut cause no issue when the spell expires because they're piled up neatly like jenga sticks. When the dragon can carry well more than a thousand pounds of stuff every time he drops something off. Several tons of debris is never going to crumple in. But even if it didn't (I don't see how), the party is now entombed. Sounds like a fun challenge for the group or TPK depending on how you run it.

Or they use a few resources and get out another way.

Oh, and dragons never, ever have allies or additional minions that the party hasn't already killed off.

Clearly you didn't read what I said about allies.

 

[Oofta]

If you stop thinking of the players as idiots, it gets easier. They don't just walk out. They are fighting powerful dragons, so they have other ways to both see out and get out.

Or they use a few resources and get out another way.

So the party walks out after the first thousand pound pile of crud is dropped. Roll for initiative.

Wait until they get a long rest? You're assuming of they can get out - I'm assuming a couple tons of pretty much impenetrable debris. They can't cast a spell to get out before the hut expires, those are blocked. Hut goes away they get crushed. If they don't get crushed, better hope they have teleport, because they've been covered in a new impenetrable barrier of mundane material.

[EDIT: don't forget that the area is in total, impenetrable darkness, you need a 3rd level or higher spell to see out, but again spells can't penetrate the hut. They can't see out without leaving the hut and casting a spell.]

I can't think off the top of my head how they'd get out. Doesn't mean they couldn't - players surprise me all the time. But I think there's a good chance they're simply SOL.

Clearly you didn't read what I said about allies.

I read it. I don't think the dragon needs allies in this context. But they do have minions.

In my world and in most cases monsters have allies or at least other creatures that owe them favors or can be recruited in some other way. The party just got past the dragon's outer defenses, they obviously pose a threat.

Creatures that live for centuries did not get there by being reckless or thinking they can defeat every threat by themselves. I don't play dragons with a higher intelligence than most PCs that aren't wizards as stupid.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Dragons tend to be spellcasters. Dispel Magic.

 

[Oofta]

Dragons tend to be spellcasters. Dispel Magic.

That would never work! Because ... umm ... because! Care to throw out some other random solution?

What if the dragon isn't a caster? Next thing you know you'll suggest that the dragon could just hunt down the nearest wizard and make a deal that the caster comes with and does a simple favor or they get eaten.

 

[Asisreo]

Does the dragon need to be proud? Can't it be, like, okay with allies or at least tolerate them for the good of its hoard?

Seems a bit silly that ALL dragons will refuse aid. And if you're doing a solo monster fight, you're setting yourself up for cheese anyways.