D&D 5E Countering Rest Spells (Tiny Hut, Rope Trick, et al)

[Oofta]

Does the dragon need to be proud? Can't it be, like, okay with allies or at least tolerate them for the good of its hoard?

Seems a bit silly that ALL dragons will refuse aid. And if you're doing a solo monster fight, you're setting yourself up for cheese anyways.

There seems to be a common theory that dragons have to be fundamentally flawed so that adventurers have a chance.

I don't do that except maybe for white dragons because those are not particularly intelligent. A dragon fight in my game against an adult or older dragon is always going to have the dragon using every option at their disposal. They'll never be caught in the open, never get into melee unless they absolutely have to and so on.

But that's a different thread.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There seems to be a common theory that dragons have to be fundamentally flawed so that adventurers have a chance.

I don't do that except maybe for white dragons because those are not particularly intelligent. A dragon fight in my game against an adult or older dragon is always going to have the dragon using every option at their disposal. They'll never be caught in the open, never get into melee unless they absolutely have to and so on.

But that's a different thread.

Right. What's the point of a dragon if I can just yeet acid balls at it until it dies.

I want to have to work to ground that big ol' bastard so that our standard strategies can be used, or end up with a rogue clinging to the dragon's back, or whatever.

 

[uzirath]

Right. A proud dragon is going to run to his allies to whine about being unable to handle these mean adventurers and their low level spell. That's a good way to get those allies to start eyeing the dragon and its horde as something to be plucked.

But shouldn't the point about not assuming the players are idiots apply to dragons too? Even a proud dragon, if it's intended to be an intelligent foe, should be able to come up with some way to enhance its odds with an eight-hour break in the action. Maybe it has minions rather than allies. Maybe it lures other less-intelligent beasts into position as meat shields. Maybe it tricks a rival adventuring party into finding the hut of their implacable foes. The point is that there are lots of creative options.

Why do you assume that a dragon isn't stupid, but the PCs are and will just ignore the thuds and not assume that bad stuff will happen when the spell ends? The PCs are going to act to counter it, even if they don't know exactly what it is.

Isn't that the point? Acting to counter the dragon keeps the action moving and prevents the party from simply having an eight-hour vacation. I didn't think this thread was about how to convert Tiny Hut into an instant win for the opposition. It's about how to keep Tiny Hut (and other spells of its ilk) from shifting the odds too heavily in favor of the PCs.

Again, you assume a party of idiots. In my experience, the players rarely play so stupidly. If they do, they didn't survive to be fighting dragons in the first place.

Interesting take. The players I've gamed with would look at it from the opposite angle. No players I've ever gamed with would want to be in a Tiny Hut for eight hours while a dragon was out and about preparing for them. That sounds like suicide to me. Maybe it could be an element of a larger attack plan (temporary cover for some archers or a fallback when the wizard uses up her nukes), but I can't imagine it being used for a long rest.

I don't understand the level of animosity that this conversation has generated. I've been vaguely following along since this forked off from the other thread, and it seems utterly bizarre to me how much abuse has been heaped on @Oofta. Even if the spell is unbalanced (and it may be), it seems fruitful to consider how to counter it at tables that are unwilling to ban or adjust it. Of course, some of the ideas won't work for some groups, but that's true of anything proposed on an internet forum.

 

[Oofta]

Right. What's the point of a dragon if I can just yeet acid balls at it until it dies.

I want to have to work to ground that big ol' bastard so that our standard strategies can be used, or end up with a rogue clinging to the dragon's back, or whatever.

Although now I'm envisioning the following scene if the party ever tried to do a hut and the dragon was not a spell caster.

Party hears a polite knock on the dome.​

Bob the NPC Wizard: "Umm, excuse me. Do you have a moment?"​

PC: "Bob? Is that you? Is there a problem with the potions we bought the other day? We're trying to get some rest here."​

Bob the NPC Wizard: "No, it's just that I want to apologize."​

PC: "For what? The potions worked great and that new spell scroll was extremely helpful."​

Bob the NPC Wizard: "Well, it's a bit complicated. See, I can either dispel your magical hut here or ... " Bob gulps loudly " ... or the dragon eats me and destroys my city. So sorry."​

PC: "Well thanks for the warning I guess. If we survive do we at least get a discount on our next purchase?"​

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Although now I'm envisioning the following scene if the party ever tried to do a hut and the dragon was not a spell caster.

Party hears a polite knock on the dome.​

Bob the NPC Wizard: "Umm, excuse me. Do you have a moment?"​

PC: "Bob? Is that you? Is there a problem with the potions we bought the other day? We're trying to get some rest here."​

Bob the NPC Wizard: "No, it's just that I want to apologize."​

PC: "For what? The potions worked great and that new spell scroll was extremely helpful."​

Bob the NPC Wizard: "Well, it's a bit complicated. See, I can either dispel your magical hut here or ... " Bob gulps loudly " ... or the dragon eats me and destroys my city. So sorry."​

PC: "Well thanks for the warning I guess. If we survive do we at least get a discount on our next purchase?"​

Lol yes.

PC, via message: Hey Bob, make sure you get the hell outta here the MOMENT it’s down. That bastard ain’t gonna keep a deal.

 

[Maxperson]

Wait until they get a long rest? You're assuming of they can get out - I'm assuming a couple tons of pretty much impenetrable debris. They can't cast a spell to get out before the hut expires, those are blocked. Hut goes away they get crushed. If they don't get crushed, better hope they have teleport, because they've been covered in a new impenetrable barrier of mundane material.

Says who? What makes you think the party will be 100% out of spells and other resources when they go to rest?

You're good with assuming that the enemy will have on hand or be able to run around the corner to Home Depot to get all they need to screw over the resting party, but have trouble with thinking that the party will have a brain or resources of their own handy. Why is that?

[EDIT: don't forget that the area is in total, impenetrable darkness, you need a 3rd level or higher spell to see out, but again spells can't penetrate the hut. They can't see out without leaving the hut and casting a spell.]

I haven't forgotten. It's just not relevant for a lot of what the party can accomplish or plan for.

I can't think off the top of my head how they'd get out. Doesn't mean they couldn't - players surprise me all the time. But I think there's a good chance they're simply SOL.

Maybe, but I think probably not.

 

[Maxperson]

What if the dragon isn't a caster? Next thing you know you'll suggest that the dragon could just hunt down the nearest wizard and make a deal that the caster comes with and does a simple favor or they get eaten.

Remember, you use a 1 week long rest. Most people use 8 hours and it's unlikely that the dragon will be able to find a wizard like that within 4 hours of the remote location it lives in.

 

[Oofta]

Says who? What makes you think the party will be 100% out of spells and other resources when they go to rest?

You're good with assuming that the enemy will have on hand or be able to run around the corner to Home Depot to get all they need to screw over the resting party, but have trouble with thinking that the party will have a brain or resources of their own handy. Why is that?



I haven't forgotten. It's just not relevant for a lot of what the party can accomplish or plan for.



Maybe, but I think probably not.

Getting the party to come out of the hut to fight before they have a night's rest is the whole point.

Home depot for a dragon to cast darkness and grab a thousand pounds of whatever is lying around that he can toss on the hut for hours on end? LOL.

But I get it. You can't really counter my arguments, you just refuse to agree so you have to take anything I say to a ridiculous extreme to "disprove" it. Have a good one.

 

[Maxperson]

Getting the party to come out of the hut to fight before they have a night's rest is the whole point.

Home depot for a dragon to cast darkness and grab a thousand pounds of whatever is lying around that he can toss on the hut for hours on end? LOL.

But I get it. You can't really counter my arguments, you just refuse to agree so you have to take anything I say to a ridiculous extreme to "disprove" it. Have a good one.

You're the one who has had to resort to dragons. Dragons are very rare. But I get it. You can't really explain how every other intelligent creature has just what it needs when the party is resting inside the dome, so you went to dragons.

 

[Derren]

Getting the party to come out of the hut to fight before they have a night's rest is the whole point.

Home depot for a dragon to cast darkness and grab a thousand pounds of whatever is lying around that he can toss on the hut for hours on end? LOL.

But I get it. You can't really counter my arguments, you just refuse to agree so you have to take anything I say to a ridiculous extreme to "disprove" it. Have a good one.

Again, you do not get it.
No, getting the party to come out of the hut before 8 hours is not the whole point when you take loads of damage in doing so or give the party time to heal and buff up with a short rest or potions/spells.

This 3rd level spell is extremely versatile and hugely powerful compared to what other spells of this level can do. Sure, when you mentally reduce it just a resting spell it might be in line, but that is just one use of the spell.
It is also a superb offensive spell if you can manage to cast it or a good defensive position to be casted right before combat which, as you prove, requires a lot of DM fiat and resources to counter and makes dispel magic a requirement to have which alone shows that Tiny Hut is OP.